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Neck sizing vs full length

I'm guilty of neck sizing on the first firing of new brass as I feel it serves no purpose to run it through a F/L sizer. And the F/L sizers that I use are custom made to match my chamber(s). - And I've even neck sized only on brass on it's second firing after it was checked & compared with a "bump" gage to a case that is fully fire-formed. By the 3rd firing (and sometimes the second) I'm F/L sizing, or using a Body die on it & a neck sizer from that point on.
- Also, I believe that how brass is fire-formed indeed has relevance on when the Full-length sizing process needs to start happening. - I don't believe in over working brass, as well as I don't believe in having brass that has "feel" to get the bolt closed or bolt-click during extraction. - I believe that neck-sizing only has a "place" in the very begining of the brass' life, but shortly there-after the shoulder will need to be bumped and the body of the brass formed back to where bolt-click ins't present.
 
LA50SHOOTER said:
I'm guilty of neck sizing on the first firing of new brass as I feel it serves no purpose to run it through a F/L sizer. And the F/L sizers that I use are custom made to match my chamber(s). - And I've even neck sized only on brass on it's second firing after it was checked & compared with a "bump" gage to a case that is fully fire-formed. By the 3rd firing (and sometimes the second) I'm F/L sizing, or using a Body die on it & a neck sizer from that point on.
- Also, I believe that how brass is fire-formed indeed has relevance on when the Full-length sizing process needs to start happening. - I don't believe in over working brass, as well as I don't believe in having brass that has "feel" to get the bolt closed or bolt-click during extraction. - I believe that neck-sizing only has a "place" in the very begining of the brass' life, but shortly there-after the shoulder will need to be bumped and the body of the brass formed back to where bolt-click ins't present.
Click to expand...
Yeah that would work. FL dies usually only neck size virgin brass anyhow unless a chamber and dies are designed to be tight on virgin brass.

None of my FL dies bump the shoulder or size the base of virgin brass. Just size the neck. So I suppose I could say I neck size my virgin brass too ;)
 
WIB3 said:
I use a custom ground die that FL sizes the case only .0015”. I neck size only 1/2 of the neck. The unsized portion will center your case in the chamber. Bump the neck to where you get a free bolt drop. Can’t go wrong with any case.
Click to expand...
That's a different spin on what we've been talking about, but I see where that would work.
 
vbirddogs said:
What is the most common practice amongst distance shooters, f-class, prs? Neck sizing only (with a mandrel after) or full sizing?
Click to expand...
According to the video with some folks favorite person, Erik Cortina, the answer is FULL LENGTH! Is he and everyone else using custom dies. I don't know and don't care. They are your bullets, Powder, Primers, ect.. Do what you find works and stick with it... But don't be afraid to try new things.. That is how we grow and learn. Be sure to try new things with an open mind... That greatly affects the out come...
 
Ok here's a stupid question. I think it's stupid because I've been reloading over 50 years, dozens of different cartridges most full length sized, 3 cartridges neck sized only and never had to tap a bolt closed or open. 1 is a 64,000 PSI case another 65,000 PSI case, the 3rd runs over well SAAMI tested at 60,050 average PSI.

So here's the question. Do you guys ever have parts fly?

Quite frankly if I'm benched next to a guy tapping bolts closed or open I just leave the range. I've been shot at and jumped out of aircraft, it's just business but whether it's professionally or as an amateur regulary practicing unsafe behavior seems plumb loco!
 
David Milisock said:
Ok here's a stupid question. I think it's stupid because I've been reloading over 50 years, dozens of different cartridges most full length sized, 3 cartridges neck sized only and never had to tap a bolt closed or open. 1 is a 64,000 PSI case another 65,000 PSI case, the 3rd runs over well SAAMI tested at 60,050 average PSI.

So here's the question. Do you guys ever have parts fly?

Quite frankly if I'm benched next to a guy tapping bolts closed or open I just leave the range. I've been shot at and jumped out of aircraft, it's just business but whether it's professionally or as an amateur regulary practicing unsafe behavior seems plumb loco!
Click to expand...
I've jumped out of airplanes while getting shot at. No, I've never had parts fly, but I have had to use some 'percussion adjustment to get a bolt open or two'. That is not something I would care to repeat.

As a young reloaded back in the '70's, with no chronograph at my disposal, I tended to want to get everything as hot as I could. Brass came from many sources and consistency wasn't all that great. One day, I pulled up on a jackrabbit (desert hare for those of you not in the know) and squeezed one off. I thought I did a great job of 'locking up with the rifle' and holding on him. I missed, and noted a LOT of recoil. Along with some powder escaping the chamber to come back and burn my face. Nothing serious, but powder on my face none-the-less.

That was my lesson that I ought to cool down my thinking. Fortunately, I had an uncle who taught competition and reloading for that. He showed me the ways of my errors and a different way to reload so that the loads were as consistent, as high of velocity, and WAY more stable (4831 instead of 4895).

As it pertains to this thread, absolutely, the powder load and consistency of that load is important. What you use is every bit as important as how much. There's a ton of new powders out there today. staying within their parameters is key. Going above that, while you have a bit more safety net, is still not going to give consistency.

As to people around me tapping bolts open and closed. I have to know what they have. Modern bolt guns, not so much a problem. But, I don't want to be right next to them. Unknown old guns?... Not liking to take the chance.
 
sandwarrior said:
I've jumped out of airplanes while getting shot at. No, I've never had parts fly, but I have had to use some 'percussion adjustment to get a bolt open or two'. That is not something I would care to repeat.

As a young reloaded back in the '70's, with no chronograph at my disposal, I tended to want to get everything as hot as I could. Brass came from many sources and consistency wasn't all that great. One day, I pulled up on a jackrabbit (desert hare for those of you not in the know) and squeezed one off. I thought I did a great job of 'locking up with the rifle' and holding on him. I missed, and noted a LOT of recoil. Along with some powder escaping the chamber to come back and burn my face. Nothing serious, but powder on my face none-the-less.

That was my lesson that I ought to cool down my thinking. Fortunately, I had an uncle who taught competition and reloading for that. He showed me the ways of my errors and a different way to reload so that the loads were as consistent, as high of velocity, and WAY more stable (4831 instead of 4895).

As it pertains to this thread, absolutely, the powder load and consistency of that load is important. What you use is every bit as important as how much. There's a ton of new powders out there today. staying within their parameters is key. Going above that, while you have a bit more safety net, is still not going to give consistency.

As to people around me tapping bolts open and closed. I have to know what they have. Modern bolt guns, not so much a problem. But, I don't want to be right next to them. Unknown old guns?... Not liking to take the chance.
Click to expand...
Even the finest custom actions blow up when things go wrong. Just seen where a borden blew up this past weekend and we can all agree thats as modern and strong as they come.
 
I do both. I neck size belted magnums or when I have multiple rifles in the same caliber. I'm going to both neck size and full length size the same lot of once fired brass and see if there is a "significant" difference in accuracy and precision. Just for the hell of it. ;)
 
sandwarrior said:
I've jumped out of airplanes while getting shot at. No, I've never had parts fly, but I have had to use some 'percussion adjustment to get a bolt open or two'. That is not something I would care to repeat.

As a young reloaded back in the '70's, with no chronograph at my disposal, I tended to want to get everything as hot as I could. Brass came from many sources and consistency wasn't all that great. One day, I pulled up on a jackrabbit (desert hare for those of you not in the know) and squeezed one off. I thought I did a great job of 'locking up with the rifle' and holding on him. I missed, and noted a LOT of recoil. Along with some powder escaping the chamber to come back and burn my face. Nothing serious, but powder on my face none-the-less.

That was my lesson that I ought to cool down my thinking. Fortunately, I had an uncle who taught competition and reloading for that. He showed me the ways of my errors and a different way to reload so that the loads were as consistent, as high of velocity, and WAY more stable (4831 instead of 4895).

As it pertains to this thread, absolutely, the powder load and consistency of that load is important. What you use is every bit as important as how much. There's a ton of new powders out there today. staying within their parameters is key. Going above that, while you have a bit more safety net, is still not going to give consistency.

As to people around me tapping bolts open and closed. I have to know what they have. Modern bolt guns, not so much a problem. But, I don't want to be right next to them. Unknown old guns?... Not liking to take the chance.
Click to expand...
It's not the old rifle that makes rifle reloading unsafe it's the unsafe reloader and rifleman.
I own a Remington 1917 sporterized in 06, 2 03's in 06 a Springfield and Remington. I had McGowan build a 358 Norma on a Remington 03, a 64,000 PSI cartridge and Mike Burris build a custom 450 Marlin on a Mauser 98 for 60,000 PSI Loads with 500 grain projectiles. I also have newer Remington 700 actions and a Howa running at or near 65,000 PSI. Numerous semi auto's in various calibers. My 96 Mauser in 6.5 x 55 is the low pressure bolt rifle in my cabinet as they only proof at 65,900 PSI.
I understand the need to respect the steel, the brass and the burning properties of powder. I started loading with my old man in 1966, loaded and shot around 25,000 rounds a year for nearly 2 decades in shotgun competition, all sorts of reloading for rifles and handguns since then, untold rounds.
I'll say it here like I told my son and now his son, USE YOUR HEAD, read the brass, organize you loading bench. Act on any signs that somethings wrong. Conditions change so note the conditions that were safe on this day.
This stuff of tapping closed or tapping open bolts WILL NOT be taught in my family.
 
vbirddogs said:
What is the most common practice amongst distance shooters, f-class, prs? Neck sizing only (with a mandrel after) or full sizing?
Click to expand...

To answer your question before it got sidetracked by old school short range shooters....I feel fairly confident in saying most all of the people I know in Fclass FLS....my guess is the same for LR BR....I don't shoot PRS but if I did, I would FLS every time.
 
David Milisock said:
It's not the old rifle that makes rifle reloading unsafe it's the unsafe reloader and rifleman.
I own a Remington 1917 sporterized in 06, 2 03's in 06 a Springfield and Remington. I had McGowan build a 358 Norma on a Remington 03, a 64,000 PSI cartridge and Mike Burris build a custom 450 Marlin on a Mauser 98 for 60,000 PSI Loads with 500 grain projectiles. I also have newer Remington 700 actions and a Howa running at or near 65,000 PSI. Numerous semi auto's in various calibers. My 96 Mauser in 6.5 x 55 is the low pressure bolt rifle in my cabinet as they only proof at 65,900 PSI.
I understand the need to respect the steel, the brass and the burning properties of powder. I started loading with my old man in 1966, loaded and shot around 25,000 rounds a year for nearly 2 decades in shotgun competition, all sorts of reloading for rifles and handguns since then, untold rounds.
I'll say it here like I told my son and now his son, USE YOUR HEAD, read the brass, organize you loading bench. Act on any signs that somethings wrong. Conditions change so note the conditions that were safe on this day.
This stuff of tapping closed or tapping open bolts WILL NOT be taught in my family.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on "not the rifle, it's the reloader" that's the problem. The reloader also needs to account for the condition of his rifle. What I said sounded more like a blanket statement against old rifles. Not true. I reload for a bunch of Mausers, Mosin's, and 1880's-1890's rifles. One of the things about a Mauser 98 model (of many kinds) is they have a gas escape path that modern rifles don't duplicate. A nice feature, but one shouldn't be tempted to use it.

As that pertains to this thread, one reason I try for the lowest accuracy node possible is for that reason with both modern and old. I find I'm never pushing the brass to a point of failure and am able to inspect it well enough that I can find issues on the reload bench instead of on the shooting bench. I load for brass fitting and not moving. I'm typically one to two grains below what my shooting partner uses in approximately the same bullet
 
Rope2horns said:
To answer your question before it got sidetracked by old school short range shooters....I feel fairly confident in saying most all of the people I know in Fclass FLS....my guess is the same for LR BR....I don't shoot PRS but if I did, I would FLS every time.
Click to expand...
I think fair portion of the PRS guys buy loaded ammo. If you aren't FL sizing for an event on the clock you are begging for trouble.

If your brass is dedicated to one barrel then you will likely not have problems with stuck cases if you neck size; however, if you have more than one reamer cutting your chambers, and/or you have more than one rifle or barrel in the same chambering then I garondamntee that unless you have the most amazing system of storing and sorting that I've ever seen, then you will at some point get a case from one rifle mixed in with the other and if it wasn't FL sized it will stick. (based on the number of times I've had to spin my scope pole top off for other people I'm pretty sure that)

Personally, I have >1000 cases in rotation for my F-TR rifles right now. That's more than normal, but I have to have 500ish to load to ship to South Africa for the matches there that I won't get back, and I just loaded and shipped 500 to PHX for the FCNC there this month so somewhere around 1000 is that I need today. I have more barrels that I can recall w/o counting that could be put into play throated for different bullets. My reamer has been cutting my barrels for about 7 yrs now and I'm pretty certain that today it doesn't cut the exact same chamber it cut in 2013. There is no way I am doing anything other than FL sizing.
 
Yeah I think FL sizing in PRS would be just as important because those guys are running around dusty fields and structures and shooting from all positions. Wouldn’t want a super tight body fit on the case if you had a little dust or dirt on the ammo or in the chamber.
 
^^ Agree XTR. Maybe it bears saying explicitly that FLS doesn’t make rounds - in and of themselves - more accurate, or brass last longer - unless they were too tight fitting before it was done. In this regard it IS rather different from nearly all other prep steps like annealing, barrel cleaning, bullet sorting or charge weighing, that draw a straight line to smaller groups or longer life.

It’s done for the stability of rifle when cycled, interchangeability of rounds between barrels, and life span of the action lugs. It is not an entirely benign operation, especially when excessive. If you FLS when it actually didn’t need to be done, then indeed you did not gain any of those benefits, that time. It is fair to say that in at least some guns, brass, especially when new, does not need to be FLS’d every firing.
 
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