Neck sizing vs full length

[INTJ]

So, what I'm taking away from this thread is:
It isn't just FL sizing. It's full length sizing with custom dies to a minimum of brass movement to MATCH THE CHAMBER.

Concentricity/alignment/runout etc. are ALL very important. But they are achieved with the kind of dies and processes described above. Without variation. We know the brass is going to be a close fit still but loose enough to be easily chambered and ~usually~ easily extracted. Depending upon load.

Each load with the right process in reloading with the right dies will produce CLOSELY repeatable results. Anytime there is a component failure, i.e. brass, barrel, there is an as closely approximated replacement as can be obtained. Do you go back and make a new set of barrels if the reamer you used before is different? Or, just find a way to regrind the reamer to an exacting set of specs based on what the barrels you still have are?

I understand brass is the flexible part of the equation, but where is the datum point at which the brass chambers the exact same every time? Is it held the same in the rear of the chamber and the expansion during ignition pushes it into the shoulder where it centers? Or, is it tight headspace on part of the shoulder that hasn't been bumped back? While the part of the shoulder that has been bumped gives the flexibility?

It's that last little question about neck sizing that holds the brass 100% in the chamber vs. custom dies that hold the brass 99% and rely on expansion to fill the chamber and hold the brass during ignition.

We don't need custom FL dies to shoot well at long range. As I posted earlier, I and others have found that there is no accuracy difference between brass sized in a custom FL die and brass that is sized in a small base die, and the small base die reduces the diameter even further than a custom die. In fact, the best shooting barrel I have is one where I made a rookie mistake on the chamber and wound up getting the chamber base .002" oversize. I did not get special dies for that chamber. Even in that huge chamber with a sloppy fit, I managed a six target LG agg of 5.376" at 1000 yds, good for third place over the two day match. On the tuning day before the match, that barrel shot three consecutive sub 2" 3-shot groups at 1000 yds.

The critical part of the chamber is the throat area. What is behind the throat isn't as important as we used to think. Thus a snug fitting case in the chamber, like we get with neck-only sizing, isn't any advantage. It however can be a huge disadvantage if the bolt is not smooth to open.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

We don't need custom FL dies to shoot well at long range. As I posted earlier, I and others have found that there is no accuracy difference between brass sized in a custom FL die and brass that is sized in a small base die, and the small base die reduces the diameter even further than a custom die. In fact, the best shooting barrel I have is one where I made a rookie mistake on the chamber and wound up getting the chamber base .002" oversize. I did not get special dies for that chamber. Even in that huge chamber with a sloppy fit, I managed a six target LG agg of 5.376" at 1000 yds, good for third place over the two day match. On the tuning day before the match, that barrel shot three consecutive sub 2" 3-shot groups at 1000 yds.

The critical part of the chamber is the throat area. What is behind the throat isn't as important as we used to think. Thus a snug fitting case in the chamber, like we get with neck-only sizing, isn't any advantage. It however can be a huge disadvantage if the bolt is not smooth to open.

I have never noticed any accuracy change between brass being loose or tight in the rear. However, if you are too loose in the rear and your sizing die is working that area above the case head really hard, you will mostly likely have case bodies start cracking from the work hardening.
Happened to me last year with Peterson brass that was a good ways out of spec on my 300 NMI. After 3 firings on the brass, I noticed all my case bodies were cracking anywhere from about .300” to just under half way up the case. Measured the brass and found that the brass bases were grossly undersized. Switched over to Lapua brass that was built to proper spec and have had no issues since

 

[urbanrifleman]

Yes he is. Such a great man. I am honored to call him a friend. Here he is shooting 2 weekends ago in the AZ Benchrest Shooters LV-HV Match at the age of 91.
View attachment 1207151

...and his bullets are moly'd.

DOOOHHHH

 

[ridgeway]

How about lets throw ring sizing in FTW,

 

[INTJ]

I have never noticed any accuracy change between brass being loose or tight in the rear. However, if you are too loose in the rear and your sizing die is working that area above the case head really hard, you will mostly likely have case bodies start cracking from the work hardening.
Happened to me last year with Peterson brass that was a good ways out of spec on my 300 NMI. After 3 firings on the brass, I noticed all my case bodies were cracking anywhere from about .300” to just under half way up the case. Measured the brass and found that the brass bases were grossly undersized. Switched over to Lapua brass that was built to proper spec and have had no issues since

That is why I stopped shooting that barrel. It ruins brass. Once a case expands in the head a certain amount, it's very hard to put it back. I will rechamber that barrel though.

Regardless, the important point is brass that fits the chamber tightly is not the accuracy enhancement we all used to think it was.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

I'm guilty of neck sizing on the first firing of new brass as I feel it serves no purpose to run it through a F/L sizer. And the F/L sizers that I use are custom made to match my chamber(s). - And I've even neck sized only on brass on it's second firing after it was checked & compared with a "bump" gage to a case that is fully fire-formed. By the 3rd firing (and sometimes the second) I'm F/L sizing, or using a Body die on it & a neck sizer from that point on.
- Also, I believe that how brass is fire-formed indeed has relevance on when the Full-length sizing process needs to start happening. - I don't believe in over working brass, as well as I don't believe in having brass that has "feel" to get the bolt closed or bolt-click during extraction. - I believe that neck-sizing only has a "place" in the very begining of the brass' life, but shortly there-after the shoulder will need to be bumped and the body of the brass formed back to where bolt-click ins't present.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I'm guilty of neck sizing on the first firing of new brass as I feel it serves no purpose to run it through a F/L sizer. And the F/L sizers that I use are custom made to match my chamber(s). - And I've even neck sized only on brass on it's second firing after it was checked & compared with a "bump" gage to a case that is fully fire-formed. By the 3rd firing (and sometimes the second) I'm F/L sizing, or using a Body die on it & a neck sizer from that point on.
- Also, I believe that how brass is fire-formed indeed has relevance on when the Full-length sizing process needs to start happening. - I don't believe in over working brass, as well as I don't believe in having brass that has "feel" to get the bolt closed or bolt-click during extraction. - I believe that neck-sizing only has a "place" in the very begining of the brass' life, but shortly there-after the shoulder will need to be bumped and the body of the brass formed back to where bolt-click ins't present.

Yeah that would work. FL dies usually only neck size virgin brass anyhow unless a chamber and dies are designed to be tight on virgin brass.

None of my FL dies bump the shoulder or size the base of virgin brass. Just size the neck. So I suppose I could say I neck size my virgin brass too

 

[WIB3]

I use a custom ground die that FL sizes the case only .0015”. I neck size only 1/2 of the neck. The unsized portion will center your case in the chamber. Bump the neck to where you get a free bolt drop. Can’t go wrong with any case.

 

[sandwarrior]

I use a custom ground die that FL sizes the case only .0015”. I neck size only 1/2 of the neck. The unsized portion will center your case in the chamber. Bump the neck to where you get a free bolt drop. Can’t go wrong with any case.

That's a different spin on what we've been talking about, but I see where that would work.

 

[1911nut]

I started full length sizing for my 222 cause I read here it’s better than neck sizing and I was never able to shoot this tight again.

Some day after the virus I’ll dig out the arbor press and Wilson bushing neck dies with some new Lapua brass.

5 shot groups @ 100

 

[Dusty Stevens]

“Concentricity IS one of the top two concerns when reloading for competition”

Really? Think I would catalog that statement as opinion rather than fact.

Competition shooters use good dies and their concentricity checkers gather dust

 

[XTR]

F class here. I anneal and full length every time with Redding bushing die. About 7 yrs ago I had to take the top off of my scope rod to tap my bolt open on every shot in a match. (who needs to carry a hammer)

Maybe I'm not a top shooter, but I do OK.

 

[DirtySteve]

What is the most common practice amongst distance shooters, f-class, prs? Neck sizing only (with a mandrel after) or full sizing?

According to the video with some folks favorite person, Erik Cortina, the answer is FULL LENGTH! Is he and everyone else using custom dies. I don't know and don't care. They are your bullets, Powder, Primers, ect.. Do what you find works and stick with it... But don't be afraid to try new things.. That is how we grow and learn. Be sure to try new things with an open mind... That greatly affects the out come...

 

[David Milisock]

Ok here's a stupid question. I think it's stupid because I've been reloading over 50 years, dozens of different cartridges most full length sized, 3 cartridges neck sized only and never had to tap a bolt closed or open. 1 is a 64,000 PSI case another 65,000 PSI case, the 3rd runs over well SAAMI tested at 60,050 average PSI.

So here's the question. Do you guys ever have parts fly?

Quite frankly if I'm benched next to a guy tapping bolts closed or open I just leave the range. I've been shot at and jumped out of aircraft, it's just business but whether it's professionally or as an amateur regulary practicing unsafe behavior seems plumb loco!

 

[sandwarrior]

Ok here's a stupid question. I think it's stupid because I've been reloading over 50 years, dozens of different cartridges most full length sized, 3 cartridges neck sized only and never had to tap a bolt closed or open. 1 is a 64,000 PSI case another 65,000 PSI case, the 3rd runs over well SAAMI tested at 60,050 average PSI.

So here's the question. Do you guys ever have parts fly?

Quite frankly if I'm benched next to a guy tapping bolts closed or open I just leave the range. I've been shot at and jumped out of aircraft, it's just business but whether it's professionally or as an amateur regulary practicing unsafe behavior seems plumb loco!

I've jumped out of airplanes while getting shot at. No, I've never had parts fly, but I have had to use some 'percussion adjustment to get a bolt open or two'. That is not something I would care to repeat.

As a young reloaded back in the '70's, with no chronograph at my disposal, I tended to want to get everything as hot as I could. Brass came from many sources and consistency wasn't all that great. One day, I pulled up on a jackrabbit (desert hare for those of you not in the know) and squeezed one off. I thought I did a great job of 'locking up with the rifle' and holding on him. I missed, and noted a LOT of recoil. Along with some powder escaping the chamber to come back and burn my face. Nothing serious, but powder on my face none-the-less.

That was my lesson that I ought to cool down my thinking. Fortunately, I had an uncle who taught competition and reloading for that. He showed me the ways of my errors and a different way to reload so that the loads were as consistent, as high of velocity, and WAY more stable (4831 instead of 4895).

As it pertains to this thread, absolutely, the powder load and consistency of that load is important. What you use is every bit as important as how much. There's a ton of new powders out there today. staying within their parameters is key. Going above that, while you have a bit more safety net, is still not going to give consistency.

As to people around me tapping bolts open and closed. I have to know what they have. Modern bolt guns, not so much a problem. But, I don't want to be right next to them. Unknown old guns?... Not liking to take the chance.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I've jumped out of airplanes while getting shot at. No, I've never had parts fly, but I have had to use some 'percussion adjustment to get a bolt open or two'. That is not something I would care to repeat.

As a young reloaded back in the '70's, with no chronograph at my disposal, I tended to want to get everything as hot as I could. Brass came from many sources and consistency wasn't all that great. One day, I pulled up on a jackrabbit (desert hare for those of you not in the know) and squeezed one off. I thought I did a great job of 'locking up with the rifle' and holding on him. I missed, and noted a LOT of recoil. Along with some powder escaping the chamber to come back and burn my face. Nothing serious, but powder on my face none-the-less.

That was my lesson that I ought to cool down my thinking. Fortunately, I had an uncle who taught competition and reloading for that. He showed me the ways of my errors and a different way to reload so that the loads were as consistent, as high of velocity, and WAY more stable (4831 instead of 4895).

As it pertains to this thread, absolutely, the powder load and consistency of that load is important. What you use is every bit as important as how much. There's a ton of new powders out there today. staying within their parameters is key. Going above that, while you have a bit more safety net, is still not going to give consistency.

As to people around me tapping bolts open and closed. I have to know what they have. Modern bolt guns, not so much a problem. But, I don't want to be right next to them. Unknown old guns?... Not liking to take the chance.

Even the finest custom actions blow up when things go wrong. Just seen where a borden blew up this past weekend and we can all agree thats as modern and strong as they come.

 

[dolek]

Neck sizing for the win ! No in your face video needed, we all know the truth !

 

[Downeast]

I do both. I neck size belted magnums or when I have multiple rifles in the same caliber. I'm going to both neck size and full length size the same lot of once fired brass and see if there is a "significant" difference in accuracy and precision. Just for the hell of it.

 

[David Milisock]

I've jumped out of airplanes while getting shot at. No, I've never had parts fly, but I have had to use some 'percussion adjustment to get a bolt open or two'. That is not something I would care to repeat.

As a young reloaded back in the '70's, with no chronograph at my disposal, I tended to want to get everything as hot as I could. Brass came from many sources and consistency wasn't all that great. One day, I pulled up on a jackrabbit (desert hare for those of you not in the know) and squeezed one off. I thought I did a great job of 'locking up with the rifle' and holding on him. I missed, and noted a LOT of recoil. Along with some powder escaping the chamber to come back and burn my face. Nothing serious, but powder on my face none-the-less.

That was my lesson that I ought to cool down my thinking. Fortunately, I had an uncle who taught competition and reloading for that. He showed me the ways of my errors and a different way to reload so that the loads were as consistent, as high of velocity, and WAY more stable (4831 instead of 4895).

As it pertains to this thread, absolutely, the powder load and consistency of that load is important. What you use is every bit as important as how much. There's a ton of new powders out there today. staying within their parameters is key. Going above that, while you have a bit more safety net, is still not going to give consistency.

As to people around me tapping bolts open and closed. I have to know what they have. Modern bolt guns, not so much a problem. But, I don't want to be right next to them. Unknown old guns?... Not liking to take the chance.

It's not the old rifle that makes rifle reloading unsafe it's the unsafe reloader and rifleman.
I own a Remington 1917 sporterized in 06, 2 03's in 06 a Springfield and Remington. I had McGowan build a 358 Norma on a Remington 03, a 64,000 PSI cartridge and Mike Burris build a custom 450 Marlin on a Mauser 98 for 60,000 PSI Loads with 500 grain projectiles. I also have newer Remington 700 actions and a Howa running at or near 65,000 PSI. Numerous semi auto's in various calibers. My 96 Mauser in 6.5 x 55 is the low pressure bolt rifle in my cabinet as they only proof at 65,900 PSI.
I understand the need to respect the steel, the brass and the burning properties of powder. I started loading with my old man in 1966, loaded and shot around 25,000 rounds a year for nearly 2 decades in shotgun competition, all sorts of reloading for rifles and handguns since then, untold rounds.
I'll say it here like I told my son and now his son, USE YOUR HEAD, read the brass, organize you loading bench. Act on any signs that somethings wrong. Conditions change so note the conditions that were safe on this day.
This stuff of tapping closed or tapping open bolts WILL NOT be taught in my family.

 

[Rope2horns]

What is the most common practice amongst distance shooters, f-class, prs? Neck sizing only (with a mandrel after) or full sizing?

To answer your question before it got sidetracked by old school short range shooters....I feel fairly confident in saying most all of the people I know in Fclass FLS....my guess is the same for LR BR....I don't shoot PRS but if I did, I would FLS every time.