Neck sizing vs full length

[davidjoe]

If you knew for a fact that the bolt closed easily on every single piece of brass in a box, with only neck sizing sufficient to properly secure the bullet, then I don’t think you’d gain a thing by full length sizing that box of brass, for that gun until it grew, which it will.

But lots of shooters today may run say 5 rifles in a caliber with thousands of pieces of brass and on a rainy day they may want to load up for the future. Such a box may be used eventually in a barrel that’s not even on a gun yet. The advantages to full length sizing to your same personal die would be:

1) if you are truly familiar with your load that works in your chosen, uniform barrels, you can load up and put away ammo for the future:

2) you won’t be surprised in a big match when one or two rounds have to be extracted because the bolt won’t close risking a jammed bullet and powder dump;

3) (no one wants to think of actions as consumables and) you won’t abuse your lugs with a number of tight but successful bolt closes in each box,

4) you won’t be wrecking the contact patches of a settled-in, well tracking rifle mid string, by exerting undue torque either opening or closing a bolt;

5) distractions and frustrations on the line cost points.

If you really were willing to test most of your fired brass in the action and the bolt closure was 1) a breeze, and 2) the same for all the brass, then yes for that next firing in that gun I’d say that brass is going to be both less over-worked and likely a tad more accurate because it was already fire-formed to the chamber. I don’t think the accuracy advantage is very significant though and some shooters I believe prefer virgin brass for the most important matches.

 

[CaptainMal]

Simple. You should never have to push the bolt down in any difficult manner that affects the rifle's position in the rests.

Ammo not sized to literally "fall" into position will upset the rests and affect impact. It takes PROPER sizing to get it right and repeatability.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

First, someone needs to explain WHY? Why would you give up concentricity in the chamber to brass fit?

Second, has anyone explained to everyone else that the top shooters who "full length" size are doing so with custom dies? And, newer presses that have a better 'float' fit for the brass in the shellholder?

Third, neck sizing works just fine when you're not ramping the loads up past the designed maximum operating pressure of a powder.

Fourth, Mac McMillan neck sized all his match loads. Only one guy in history has ever beaten him.

PRS, yeah I can see FL sizing. Top bench? F-Class? I don't see why. Unless you run your loads as hot as you can and HAVE to FL size so as not to beat the bolt open and closed with a hammer. And, gall your lug faces. But, those are just commodities. Barrels...somebody figured out you burn more money in bullets and powder so just throw a $700-$1000 barrel in there too. Cost of playing the fast game, right?

You will never meet a top level competitive benchrest or F-Class shooter that neck sizes brass. They only FL size because it is the only way to maintain consistency in ammo throughout all dimensions of the brass so the rifle operates properly and rounds stay consistent on target.

I use custom FL dies. If a person can afford them, they would be an absolute fool to not use dies that are custom matched to their chamber specs.

What are these magic floating presses you know about that are required to properly FL size??? Can’t wait to hear this secret...
I’ll put my old RCBS RockChucker press up against any new press at any price point and I guarantee my brass will come out just as straight, just as consistent headspacing, and with just as little runout as the most expensive presses money can buy. And I’d bet money on that.

Do what the winners do. The guys winning competitions FL size with custom dies. And there are very good reasons for FL sizing that have been proven countless times on paper at all distances. Doesn’t matter what anyone did in the past, if neck sizing was still considered better, then that’s what the comp shooters would be doing today. Complain and argue all you want about how neck sizing is better and you’ll just be wasting your time because no serious shooter will be listening.

 

[dolek]

You will never meet a top level competitive benchrest or F-Class shooter that neck sizes brass. They only FL size because it is the only way to maintain consistency in ammo throughout all dimensions of the brass so the rifle operates properly and rounds stay consistent on target.

I use custom FL dies. If a person can afford them, they would be an absolute fool to not use dies that are custom matched to their chamber specs.

What are these magic floating presses you know about that are required to properly FL size??? Can’t wait to hear this secret...
I’ll put my old RCBS RockChucker press up against any new press at any price point and I guarantee my brass will come out just as straight, just as consistent headspacing, and with just as little runout as the most expensive presses money can buy. And I’d bet money on that.

Do what the winners do. The guys winning competitions FL size with custom dies. And there are very good reasons for FL sizing that have been proven countless times on paper at all distances. Doesn’t matter what anyone did in the past, if neck sizing was still considered better, then that’s what the comp shooters would be doing today. Complain and argue all you want about how neck sizing is better and you’ll just be wasting your time because no serious shooter will be listening.

Do what you want, and others will do what they want . Pretty simple.

 

[K22]

Don't need to get emotional about the issue - it's been beat to death on this forum.

I may not qualify to respond to this post since I'm not an "F" Class or "PRS" shooter. However I'll offer my experience since I did both, neck sizing for a long time but converted to full sizing with a shoulder bump about 10 years ago maybe longer - hard to remember. Anyway, I use full sizing exclusively now.

The main reason is that I'm primarily a precision varmint and predator hunter and I can't afford to have chambering difficulties in the field. When I neck sized I never knew when chambering would become an issue without having to check in the chamber prior to a hunt - not something I want to do. In some of my rifles, I could go 10 reloads with neck sized cases and experience no problems depending on the brand of cases With other rifles, hard chambering would start appearing after 4 to 5 reloads. I also began noticing wear marks on the bolt lugs - not good.

So why neck size? First it was a lot easier and quicker, just lube the necks with dry lube and size. Before I retired, this had a lot of value. Second, I believed at the time that it extended case and yielded more accurate reloads. The latter was dispelled as I started full sizing with a .001 to .002 shoulder bump. I neither experience a reduction in case life or decline in accuracy with properly full size cases.

So why full size? Quite simply for problem free chambering and reduction of wear on the bolt lugs. Yea, it's a pain and time consuming lubing, measuring case head space, adjusting the die as cases age, removing the lube, etc. but I like the idea of having a case with optimum fit in the chamber which at least theoretically produces more accurate reloads.. I also like the idea of less stress on the bolt lugs. Besides I have the time now

So pick your poison

 

[INTJ]

Neck only sizing is an old method that most-- if not all--serious competition shooters have moved on from. Everyone I shoot with and know in LR BR bumps the shoulder.

The arguments we have are: do we bump shoulders .002" or .003"? Should we small base every time? Should neck clearance be .003" or .004"?

The thought of one LR BR competitor and recent National Champion is that a .003" bump acts as sort of a damper as the case stretches under firing. He thinks brass so sized is this more forgiving of variances in the other components. He has the results to make his idea worthy of consideration.

Another competitor I know that does very well and develops a lot of accuracy enhancing tools thinks that anything over .002" is too much and sort of re-fireforms the brass each time it is shot.

I and others have personally seen how small base sized brass shoots as well as brass sized in our modestly priced custom sized dies. Such to the point that if all I had was an off the shelf Redding bushing die and a small base die for a .308 I would be at no disadvantage. It just takes longer with two sizing steps vs the one in my very small diameter FL customer dies.

The one thing virtually all LR BR shooters agree on is that a case that is too tight and causes sticky bolt lift messes up tracking. Messing up tracking, especially during 10-shot strings, can put you out of the micro-condition and open your groups well beyond your tuning.

LR BR shooters make no compromises when it comes to the ultimate in accuracy at longer ranges. Yet over the years we have actually increased case to chamber clearance as our groups aggs continue to get smaller.

 

[sandwarrior]

“Concentricity IS one of the top two concerns when reloading for competition”

Really? Think I would catalog that statement as opinion rather than fact.

Alright, you've thrown the shade. Now back it up with some facts. Reasons why it isn't so important.

 

[sandwarrior]

Neck only sizing is an old method that most-- if not all--serious competition shooters have moved on from. Everyone I shoot with and know in LR BR bumps the shoulder.

The arguments we have are: do we bump shoulders .002" or .003"? Should we small base every time? Should neck clearance be .003" or .004"?

The thought of one LR BR competitor and recent National Champion is that a .003" bump acts as sort of a damper as the case stretches under firing. He thinks brass so sized is this more forgiving of variances in the other components. He has the results to make his idea worthy of consideration.

Another competitor I know that does very well and develops a lot of accuracy enhancing tools thinks that anything over .002" is too much and sort of re-fireforms the brass each time it is shot.

I and others have personally seen how small base sized brass shoots as well as brass sized in our modestly priced custom sized dies. Such to the point that if all I had was an off the shelf Redding bushing die and a small base die for a .308 I would be at no disadvantage. It just takes longer with two sizing steps vs the one in my very small diameter FL customer dies.

The one thing virtually all LR BR shooters agree on is that a case that is too tight and causes sticky bolt lift messes up tracking. Messing up tracking, especially during 10-shot strings, can put you out of the micro-condition and open your groups well beyond your tuning.

LR BR shooters make no compromises when it comes to the ultimate in accuracy at longer ranges. Yet over the years we have actually increased case to chamber clearance as our groups aggs continue to get smaller.

I like what you've said here. We can get AS SMALL of groups while still giving chamber clearance. But, are we going to better our performance? I say this as a 100 yd. BR shooter clear on out to a mile. IT ALL MATTERS. What you masters do at 100 is what we base our ability on at 1 mi. Any reason, sound proof, helps.

The brass acting as a dampener is true. Anybody who fireforms with fireform/regular loads can attest, those can be very accurate. While we know this, has anybody delved into the reasons, other than the brass is a good dampener? I see cartridges that are, in some way, held true to the chamber shooting great groups. To me though, it's chancing whether a round is somehow held true in the chamber by a FL resize process vs. KNOWING a cartridge is, in most every way, held true in the chamber, i.e. neck sizing.

Can anybody describe how their cartridge, to whatever degree, is held true in each chamber?

In neck sizing, without going hot, is there some variable we are not seeing?

That said, NO ONE can afford to have a cartridge not fit. The only way to do that is to test them prior to use. FL sizing is a LOT more sure of that not happening. Again, though, is there an accuracy cost? I see with custom FL dies that is mitigated. Is it fully mitigated? For some disciplines in the sport, absolutely well within accuracy parameters. But, in ultimate accuracy is it fully mitigated?

 

[jvw2008]

I have no facts to suggest case/bullet concentricity isn’t important. I strive for the best I can get because I think it is indicative of good case prep. However, I also have read no study that says it’s among the top two priorities in precision reloading. Have you? If that info is out there and your statement is correct, please post a link- I would like to learn something new. Strictly my “opinion” but I would put consistent case capacity and neck tension as the top two. I also don’t have any facts to support that “opinion”.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

@sandwarrior
It’s not just 100 yard BR shooters that FL size. Every 1,000 yard BR shooter and 1,000 yard F-Class shooter out there FL sizes as well. There’s even a 2,000 yard competition that started up here in Montana. Again everyone FL sizes and some guys are shooting 5 shot groups under 14” at 2K. Some of those guys shoot tens of thousands of rounds and go thru burning out multiple barrels each year in testing for upcoming competition seasons. Believe me, they’ve tested everything you’ve ever heard anywhere on the internet or in any magazine. What you don’t know is that they also test a ton of things you have NEVER heard of yet because they keep some of their cards hidden for an edge on the competition. But one of the things they all agree on and have in common is that brass should always be FL sized.

These are the same guys out there designing all the cutting edge technology in today’s modern custom actions, all of today’s most accurate bullets (Walt Berger is a BR shooter), and many of the cartridges and wildcats you know today were first invented and tested by benchrest and F-class competition shooters long before they became public knowledge.

Do you think Hornady was the first one to come up with the various PRC designs based on the 375 Ruger case? Do you think Nosler was the first to try their various cartridges based on the Ultra Mag case? No way. Guys had been wildcatting those cases for many years long before Hornady and Nosler commercialized them under the facade that they were their own design.

 

[BoydAllen]

@sandwarrior
It’s not just 100 yard BR shooters that FL size. Every 1,000 yard BR shooter and 1,000 yard F-Class shooter out there FL sizes as well. There’s even a 2,000 yard competition that started up here in Montana. Again everyone FL sizes and some guys are shooting 5 shot groups under 14” at 2K. Some of those guys shoot tens of thousands of rounds and go thru burning out multiple barrels each year in testing for upcoming competition seasons. Believe me, they’ve tested everything you’ve ever heard anywhere on the internet or in any magazine. What you don’t know is that they also test a ton of things you have NEVER heard of yet because they keep some of their cards hidden for an edge on the competition. But one of the things they all agree on and have in common is that brass should always be FL sized.

These are the same guys out there designing all the cutting edge technology in today’s modern custom actions, all of today’s most accurate bullets (Walt Berger was a BR shooter), and many of the cartridges and wildcats you know today were first invented and tested by benchrest and F-class competition shooters long before they became public knowledge.

Do you think Hornady was the first one to come up with the various PRC designs based on the 375 Ruger case? Do you think Nosler was the first to try their various cartridges based on the Ultra Mag case? No way. Guys had been wildcatting those cases for many years long before Hornady and Nosler commercialized them under the facade that they were their own design.

Small correction, Walt Berger IS a benchrest shooter.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Small correction, Walt Berger IS a benchrest shooter.

Oops. Post edited

 

[ShootDots]

There are more reasons than just accuracy, concentricity or whatever. T-Rust me, I F/L size and I get excellent concentricity / runout. In F-Open, especially in the warmer climates of the South and Southwest, when a rifle, cartridges and the brass itself is under the strain of 25+ shots in 30 mins or less, things get pretty hot. In Arizona here, usually by the second match and say 8+ shots into it, I have a difficult time even handling the spent cases. When under this level of stress, using a Full Length size on cases, with about 3 thousandths of shoulder bump, the case will expand in the chamber and absorb some of the initial pressure. By the time the case hits the chamber wall and stops it's expansion, pressures have levelled out. If the shooter is not running ridiculous pressures, BOTH chambering as well as extraction is very easy. This allows for MUCH quicker shots during a specific atmospheric condition, thus increasing the likelihood of putting MORE accurate shots down range and into the 10x / X-ring. This can and has been beneficial to some winners of rather large matches! T-Rust me, ALL F-Class shooters employ F/L sizing in their loading regimen..

 

[Scott Harris]

This is such a simple subject. Neck sizing does not improve accuracy versus F/L sizing....when using dies that are a good fit for the chamber. If you don't full-length size and you use full pressure loads, you WILL have difficulty closing and opening your bolts. This is why the vast majority of competitive shooters, hunters, and anybody else that needs smooth loading fast-firing rifles full length sizes. Neck sizing does not improve accuracy...it's a relic from the 1960s.

 

[dolek]

It's funny , I neck size at times ...and I win matches . Glad I don't listen to the miserable know-it-alls I might struggle like them .

 

[ShootDots]

It's funny , I neck size at times ...and I win matches . Glad I don't listen to the miserable know-it-alls I might struggle like them .

You know it's funny, you don't know either myself, Scott Harris, Boyd Allen or Ledd Slinger, however, we are, according to you, "miserable know it alls"... I guess that would make you a "delightful know-nothing"?

 

[dolek]

You know it's funny, you don't know either myself, Scott Harris, Boyd Allen of Ledd Slinger, however, we are, according to you, "miserable know it alls"... I guess that would make you a "delightful know-nothing"?

What's real funny is you took it personal . I wonder why ? I mentioned no names .

PS I think Boyd is a well spoken , level headed wealth of knowledge.

 

[ShootDots]

What's real funny is you took it personal . I wonder why ? I mentioned no names .

PS I think Boyd is a well spoken , level headed wealth of knowledge.

Well let me ask you "who were you aiming your comment at"? If it was not aimed at anyone, why would you make that comment? If it was not aimed at anyone, why was it in context with those that take the position that F/L sizing is preferable to neck sizing? I believe YOU took it personally and made your comment about ANY / ALL of the dissenters of the opinion you side with..

 

[Ringostar]

Ben, Don’t get suckered in by the chameleon. He constantly changes user name, and intentionally creates arguments.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Wow.

Its amaxing to see these discussions always end up the same.