Details on AR Tactical in NRA High Power (Midrange)

[Turbulent Turtle]

One thing people seem to forget here is the NRA did not limit the caliber that can be used in this "class." It's virtually anything that can be chambered in an AR. Many here only think in terms of .223Rem/5.56NATO. When you make up a class like this you have to think ahead to what the shooters will be doing, not just next month but next year or in 5 years. If you start with easy targets, changing them a few years later will only create more issues.

So start with difficult targets right off the bat. You should not be able to clean the target as a matter of course. After a little while, people will put together ARs with calibers other than .223/5.56 (think 6.5CM or .224 Valkyrie or others) and with 15X optics and decent non-F-TR bipods, the standard MR-1 targets will be toast.

It's very myopic of the NRA to allow any caliber AND the use of the regular MR-1 targets.

 

[jrh84]

I attended the CIHPRS 600 yard match at Camp Atterbury on October 27, to get my feet wet in the Tactical Prone, I'm only sorry it took me so long to get involved in this competition. I was heartily welcomed and encouraged by the sling shooters but was disappointed to find that I seemed to be the only one Tactical class. It was a practice match so it was for bragging rights only. I did run into a couple of shooters who sain that they hoped that some of their friends would shoot this match, but it is discouraging not to see more.

I understand the "mag length" rule, it makes perfect sense to me, however that we cannot use a "Bob Sled" or similar magazine substitute makes single loading unwieldy. I have no desire to use a loaded magazine in these matches. I hope that the NRA review in January ends in keeping this alive.

Thanks to Shawn for running a professional match, I eagerly await next year's schedule.

Glad you made it our for our last match, and hope to see you there again next year! I was the poor sap struggling with a Palma rifle to your right.

Hopefully my buddy that was shooting AR tac last year shoots it some next year, too. You all can have someone to shoot with/against.

I'll put in my $0.02 on this subject again. I did see a new shooter put up HM scores in his first 2 matches. He wasn't a new shooter, but hadn't shot past 100 yards prior to running his rifle in a 300/500/600 match earlier this year. His first relay at 300 was a 200-14X (albeit in calm conditions). He did get taken down a peg later in the year when we had some wind and mirage, and had some 190-195 scores. He's hooked, and is contemplating trying shooting with a sling next year. The MR AR Tac class served its purpose with him, and he's fired up about high power.

I absolutely say he's the exception, and not the rule when it comes to great scores. He had a sorted out rifle and handloads before he committed to a match, so it wasn't a stretch to put up a HM score in calm conditions. Most others start out in the low 190's, and go from there.

I think it should be a separate division in F-class....2 separate divisions actually...F-Tac, for a 20" max, 15X mag limited, .223/5.56 rifle, and F-AR Open, for the 6.5 Grendels, 6 Fat Rats, Valkyries, etc. No magnification limit, same weight limit as F-Open.

The nice thing about our E Targets is that we could show the AR tac guys what they would have scored on the small target with a click of a button. All of a sudden that 200-10X becomes a 190, and they realize just how impressive some of the dedicated F-class rigs (and the folks steering them) really are.

 

[Herzo]

Glad you made it our for our last match, and hope to see you there again next year! I was the poor sap struggling with a Palma rifle to your right.

Hopefully my buddy that was shooting AR tac last year shoots it some next year, too. You all can have someone to shoot with/against.

I'll put in my $0.02 on this subject again. I did see a new shooter put up HM scores in his first 2 matches. He wasn't a new shooter, but hadn't shot past 100 yards prior to running his rifle in a 300/500/600 match earlier this year. His first relay at 300 was a 200-14X (albeit in calm conditions). He did get taken down a peg later in the year when we had some wind and mirage, and had some 190-195 scores. He's hooked, and is contemplating trying shooting with a sling next year. The MR AR Tac class served its purpose with him, and he's fired up about high power.

I absolutely say he's the exception, and not the rule when it comes to great scores. He had a sorted out rifle and handloads before he committed to a match, so it wasn't a stretch to put up a HM score in calm conditions. Most others start out in the low 190's, and go from there.

I think it should be a separate division in F-class....2 separate divisions actually...F-Tac, for a 20" max, 15X mag limited, .223/5.56 rifle, and F-AR Open, for the 6.5 Grendels, 6 Fat Rats, Valkyries, etc. No magnification limit, same weight limit as F-Open.

The nice thing about our E Targets is that we could show the AR tac guys what they would have scored on the small target with a click of a button. All of a sudden that 200-10X becomes a 190, and they realize just how impressive some of the dedicated F-class rigs (and the folks steering them) really are.

Having slept on the question, I tend to agree. I was somewhat put off when I saw that the rules allowed the AR10 platform, but then I decided that my Grendel could hold its own. Given the 2 classes, (original rules for AR15 .223/5.56 only, but allow sleds) and unlimited for all others, you have an entry level to accommodate the many AR15 owners who would like to stretch their legs and a class that they can aspire to. The only other suggestion is the "production (?)"class shoots the MR1 target, unlimited shoots the F target. I only hope that we can generate enough interest to make it worthwhile.
The only thing that I am out is that I cut 2" off of my Grendel to make the old rules........anyone know a good welder?

 

[Dgd6mm]

HM at 300 yard f class shoots is obtainable, on the sling target if that is what one is after. If you put a good .223/5.56 together with a decent bullet/accurate load, you will make HM. I know of this happening. I will eventually bring my AR15 out and shoot whatever the rules will be. I shoot mostly a 26" .223, 75 grain Amax at 600 FTR class. My scores are decent, I feel I'm the handicap, not my equipment.

 

[Erud]

People shoot cleans with .223’s all the time at 600 on the sling target. And that’s actually shooting with slings, and often with iron sights. Unless you are in a part of the country with unusually crazy wind, cartridge selection isn’t usually a major factor in mid range matches on the MR target. On the f-class target or at long range, it’s a lot bigger deal. People have been doing some impressive things lately at long range with .223’s though...

 

[GSS]

People shoot cleans with .223’s all the time at 600 on the sling target. And that’s actually shooting with slings, and often with iron sights. Unless you are in a part of the country with unusually crazy wind, cartridge selection isn’t usually a major factor in mid range matches on the MR target. On the f-class target or at long range, it’s a lot bigger deal. People have been doing some impressive things lately at long range with .223’s though...

That is exactly what I was about to add.

Here is a target I shot with a Sling and a 4x scope on a run of the mill 20" WOA Wilson 1x7 twist Wylde Chamber with Hornady AMAX 80's AR15 Service Rifle down in Bridgeville Delaware.

I called the 9 on shot number 8 knowing I was too heavy on the trigger. Not and Un-Common right handed shooter nemesis.

I have shot other 199's wit ha service rifle and sling even back in the iron sight days before 4.5x scopes were made legal. I will 100% feel a sense of personal accomplishment when I finally ge the 200 with 4x scope and sling. If I did it with a higher power scope off a bipod and sandbags on the sling target I would 100% feel it was nothing to be proud of.

But if I tried it and accomplished even a 199 shooting an AR Tactical rifle on the F Class target I would be happy with that as a personal accomplishment.

Just my opinion.
i don't feel we should dumb down the sport just to coddle people with fragile ego's are are not willing to put in work it takes to improve your skill. But that is also just my opinion.

I think AR Tactical best appeal and potential is to get people out to try a match to set the hook for them to shoot in the previously established more traditional classes.

We use Shotmarker targets at my club. If I get the time I will see if I can find another one of my 198's or 199's fired at 600 with a sling and pots the picture of that target on the easier sling target and then convert the image to show what the score would have been if fired on an F class target just for sh!ts n giggles.

All the clubs I shoot at nobody that shoots consistent high scores is treated or thought of by anyone any better than people who are just learning and don't shoot great scores.

The majority of us actually prefer to see more newer shooters attend the matches than the same shooters that win all the time..

One of the best things, Besides all the great people I have met over the years and know well from shooting ,,, This is the best thing about the sport!

Edited to Add:
This post is not intended to hurt or offend anyone that is just looking at AR Tactical as something shooting related that is easy to do and easy to be (perceived as) good at right away.

That is what Marksman, SS and EX classes are for.
People should have to put in work and effort to make Master or Highmaster. IMO

 

[Herzo]

Even though I am an older shooter (more than twice the years in the last century as this), I have little experience in shooting at midrange and beyond. Probably the best part of this discipline (and the 600 yard leg of the CMP sniper competition), is a solid demonstration of the effect that wind can have. With a solid shooting position, it can help all shooters to hone their abilities in any position.

 

[memilanuk]

Hopefully it's okay if I dredge this up... figure after 10 pages so far, it's probably due for a refresh

While it sounds like the MR AR Tactical class is alive and well in other areas, I can't say as I've ever heard of anyone shooting in that class around this part of the country. I don't get around to as many MR events as I used to, so maybe I'm just missing it.

We're talking about trying to kickstart this class at our local range... which raises a few questions for me, as a MD... like submitting the scores? Typically we run (concurrently, on paper) a 'Conventional Prone' match and an 'F-class' match. Given that the rules are pretty explicit about this *not* being F-class, I'm guessing the scores would be submitted under the Sling match... but then do they end up counting for (or against, depending on your point of view) a person's MR Conventional Prone classification? I realize that the existing method of record keeping doesn't exactly delineate between scores fired with a scoped Any/Any Rifle vs. an M-1 Garand... but mixing scores (for classification) between SR, MR, and MR AR Tactical seems a bit... weird.

Also... what's the norm for variance on the scope power limitation? If a person has a 4-16x or 3-18x do you tell them "Nope, go home" or do you tell them to set it at 15x and leave it at that, on the 'honor system'?

We have a pretty small range (4-5 e-targets), and correspondingly small matches. Typically if someone shows up with a non-NRA compliant muzzle device, I let them know I can't turn their scores in, but let them shoot and just squad them where they don't bother anyone (as much as possible). As I think has been mentioned previously... the fairly narrow interpretation of muzzle devices taken by the NRA rule book may be a problem for this 'class'. How lenient are local club matches in your area about this particular subject?

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

What I really get a kick out of are the "shooting experts" that have never shot the class and were dead set against the class since before it's inception are now so full of advice .

 

[memilanuk]

What I really get a kick out of are the "shooting experts" that have never shot the class and were dead set against the class since before it's inception are now so full of advice .

Not sure how me asking about some clarification on how to handle a few things from a match director perspective, and *literally* stating that I have no experience with the class, could be remotely construed as being "so full of advice"?

 

[XTR]

My understanding from my local MD is that this is going fully recognized in the near future (time lines with the WuFlu being somewhat unpredictable). When it does I personally think that it really needs to be shot on the the F class target. I have seen at least one 200-20x this yr, and in the mid range regional last week the high score for the weekend in ART was 1196-81. Just for comparison the high F-Open gun was an 1194-60.

Based on what I have read and discussed with persons involved with other rules changes I don't think anyone outside of a small group knows what will actually be published, no matter what was heard in meetings; however I've been told that when it moves from provisional to an actual class there will be seperate classes for 223/556 and others and that it will be on the F class targets. Unfortunately HP still limits calibers to 35 so I can't shoot my 458SOCOM. ;-p

 

[Dgd6mm]

Thanks Monte for refreshing this topic. Also thanks XTR for your insight, it helps shooters like myself that may want to try this class keep up with it evolving. I confess I'm a little on the lazy side of research on some topics and relie on information from others on here.

 

[Rustytigwire]

Watching Richard Pryor the other night he said something was "Harder than Chinese Arithmetic".
Cant wait to wade thru these 10 pages of discussion so i can learn how to shoot competition for fun.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Watching Richard Pryor the other night he said something was "Harder than Chinese Arithmetic".
Cant wait to wade thru these 10 pages of discussion so i can learn how to shoot competition for fun.

Sounds to me if you haven't learned by now, you're an unteachable student.

 

[Rustytigwire]

Not taking the bait.

 

[Andy Legg]

Hopefully it's okay if I dredge this up... figure after 10 pages so far, it's probably due for a refresh

While it sounds like the MR AR Tactical class is alive and well in other areas, I can't say as I've ever heard of anyone shooting in that class around this part of the country. I don't get around to as many MR events as I used to, so maybe I'm just missing it.

We're talking about trying to kickstart this class at our local range... which raises a few questions for me, as a MD... like submitting the scores? Typically we run (concurrently, on paper) a 'Conventional Prone' match and an 'F-class' match. Given that the rules are pretty explicit about this *not* being F-class, I'm guessing the scores would be submitted under the Sling match... but then do they end up counting for (or against, depending on your point of view) a person's MR Conventional Prone classification? I realize that the existing method of record keeping doesn't exactly delineate between scores fired with a scoped Any/Any Rifle vs. an M-1 Garand... but mixing scores (for classification) between SR, MR, and MR AR Tactical seems a bit... weird.

Also... what's the norm for variance on the scope power limitation? If a person has a 4-16x or 3-18x do you tell them "Nope, go home" or do you tell them to set it at 15x and leave it at that, on the 'honor system'?

We have a pretty small range (4-5 e-targets), and correspondingly small matches. Typically if someone shows up with a non-NRA compliant muzzle device, I let them know I can't turn their scores in, but let them shoot and just squad them where they don't bother anyone (as much as possible). As I think has been mentioned previously... the fairly narrow interpretation of muzzle devices taken by the NRA rule book may be a problem for this 'class'. How lenient are local club matches in your area about this particular subject?

The NRA Classification is separate and shows as HPR MID RANGE PRONE TACTICAL (see screen shot below). At most matches the MD's just mix us right in with the Sling Shooters. I am not a MD....but I could see making allowances for someone to shoot and not turn their scores in to the NRA. If they enjoyed it....I would guess they would go home and make the necessary changes to compete legally and become classified.

I started shooting the NRA Mid Range Prone-Tactical AR Class pretty green. Before trying Tactical AR...I shot F-Open once with my box stock Savage 6.5CM using a Harris Bipod & Squeeze bag and also other 4 matches in F-TR (enough to be rated as a Sharpshooter) with a Remington .308 Varmint Rifle in a KRG Bravo Stock (using the same Squeeze bag & Harris Bipod). For the Tactical AR Class I am using an 18" PSA rifle that I already had in the safe....It took my over a year and a half and 20+ matches to achieve High Master in the AR class.

I've been working up a 185 grain Berger load for the Remington .308 and this past week I purchased a used Sinclair F-TR Bipod from forum member gaintwist (great seller). I also ordered a Rear Bag Rider attachment for the KRG Stock. All I need now is a decent rear bag and I'm good to go in F-TR.

My 16 year old (Dylan) showed interest in the Tactial AR class that I was shooting. We took AR Parts from the closet (including a 16" Wilson Bull Barrel that I had picked up on Clearance for less than $100 several years ago) and put him together a nice little carbine with an SWFA 10x scope (also laying around). Even though the wind gave him a little more grief than me (due to slower muzzle velocity @ 16" barrel) he advanced much faster than I did. He earned his High Master in 9 months. Dylan has been discussing whether he'd like to "Move-Up" to Sling or F-TR also.

I think the Class is working as designed (at least for us) & hope to see it help grow the sport and get some more of the umpteen gazillion AR's out of the safe and out to the range. Did I mention Dylan & I had great fun doing it and met lot's of great folks in 2 states. My cousin has shot a couple matches with us and my Dad (retired) keeps us with plenty of ammo loaded and ready for the matches.

 

[Monte F]

I have a separate classification for AR tactical as well. Also the 2020 rule book has the final non-provisional rules with the two classes: .223/5.56 and everything else. We get several shooters each month at our mid-range club matches, almost all shoot some 6mm variant (myself 243 win. in a Rem. R-25).

 

[memilanuk]

If it's a separate classification, it almost sounds like there would need to be another separate 'match', at least on paper ie Conventional Prone Midrange, F-class Midrange, and Midrange Prone AR Tactical.

 

[Andy Legg]

I could see if the .223/5.56 class didn't have enough shooters to have a match...giving them the option of shooting in the "everything else up to and including .308" class (combining upwards). However, I don't think it could go the other way...that is if the .223/5.56 class had enough shooters and the big bore class didn't make.

Any one else have thoughts on this?

 

[Monte F]

If it's a separate classification, it almost sounds like there would need to be another separate 'match', at least on paper ie Conventional Prone Midrange, F-class Midrange, and Midrange Prone AR Tactical.

We run it concurrent with HPR service rifle, etc, and F-class. We have separate awards (ribbons) for all classes.