Nightforce...the best or......?
- Thread starter Tstroop
- Start date
This is a series of four groups, five shots each, shot at 100 yds with my .204 with its NF 5-25 Atacr. I'm pretty sure I would notice "POI shift" if I was experiencing it.
Actually, I do experience "POI shift," all the time. Every time I change suppressors, bullet seating depth, neck-tension, annealling frequency, concentricity tolerance, you name it, not to mention environmental influences, like breeze.
I just do not see any of my NF scopes ever moving internally unless I turn a knob. Then they move in very predictable directions, just what I want them to do.
Now, don't get me wrong -- I certainly understand that any scope maker can inadvertantly put out a scope with a defect. I recently bought an older, used 8-32 NXS and discovered that the parallax did not work. No big deal, I sent it to NF and they fixed it (at no charge). As usual for them (apparently), they told me they had found nothing wrong with it and implied I just did not know how to adjust the ocular, but that's okay -- the parallax now works perfectly.
But that is one scope with a defect out of about a hundred that my shooting buds and I own, and I don't know the handling history of that one. It could have been mistreated in some way, or monkeyed with. It also was not exhibiting "POI shift" even when the parallax did not work, so long as I kept my eye centered, which I always try hard to do anyway.
Shoot and enjoy whatever you like, but excuse me if I don't believe ANYONE claiming to have had serial "POI shifts" with multiple NF scopes.
I'd like the next person who takes a 15-55 off because its reticle is bouncing around inside the erector tube to send it to me so I can finally get to experience what you guys are talking about.
Meanwhile, if you "solve" a flyer problem by taking your 15-55 off and putting another scope on, try putting the 15-55 back on and see what happens. It is amazing how having just one slightly loose ring screw can mess up your groups.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
If your gun isn’t good enough to see the difference, then you won’t. I say that with no disrespect because your setup is obviously a great shooting hunting rig. Your gun is hammering and the groups are great.
But to be clear. There is a big difference from a hunting gun to a gun purpose built to achieve zero inch groups off a bench. We are comparing apples to oranges. With the former, you may not be able to see the difference if the scope is not performing. With the latter, you certainly can.
But to be clear. There is a big difference from a hunting gun to a gun purpose built to achieve zero inch groups off a bench. We are comparing apples to oranges. With the former, you may not be able to see the difference if the scope is not performing. With the latter, you certainly can.
Please, someone post a target with four groups, five-shots each, showing one of those "purpose built" rifles actually shooting these "zero inch groups." Not some one-off group of three. I want to see four (or more) 5-shots groups on a single target.
Because, gosh, maybe I should be shooting .125" groups every single time, and I'm not only because my damned NF reticle won't hold still!
Because, gosh, maybe I should be shooting .125" groups every single time, and I'm not only because my damned NF reticle won't hold still!
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
1st is load development, 2nd is getting the kid comfortable behind the gun and giving her practice. The last two are the kid fire forming over a couple three day period. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th groups are 10-25, 20-50 rnd groups. I don't usually shoot a 100 yards but it was more about getting the kid trigger time. This is not even one of my better barrels and we are not even talking about a tuned load.Please, someone post a target with four groups, five-shots each, showing one of those "purpose built" rifles actually shooting these "zero inch groups." Not some one-off group of three. I want to see four (or more) 5-shots groups on a single target.
Because, gosh, maybe I should be shooting .125" groups every single time, and I'm not only because my damned NF reticle won't hold still!
Ray
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Yes its heavy but you don't hear people complaining about the weight of the Golden Bear action...... jim
Mt.Boy
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes sir I agree. It’s on a heavy gun so it will work great for me
To answer your question:
I'm about to post a Nightforce Competition C514 15-55 with zero stop, .125 MOA, and FCR-1 reticle for sale in the classifieds. It was on my FTR rifle for one year, and I had zero problems with it. I actually won my division of the TSRA Mid-Range in 2014 (and placed 3rd or 4th overall) with this scope. The only reason I'm selling it is because I haven't shot in any FTR comps since early 2015. The scope, the rifle, and all the other related equipment have just been gathering dust in my safe since then. I'm probably going to list all the other equipment at some point soon as well.
At the time I bought and sold scopes often, but had never had a NF because everything else I had was mil/mil FFP, and NF was still moa/mil SFP(or maybe just getting into mil/mil + FFP...can't remember exactly). MOA makes more sense for FTR though, so I took Nightforce into consideration. I either owned or had owned a few of March's 5-40 FFP and 3-24 FFP before, and loved the glass, so I looked really hard at the March 10-60. I had a March 5-40 at the time did multiple side by side comparisons of it to the NF 15-55. "Better glass" is a highly subjective thing, but to MY EYES, the March had slightly better glass when looking beyond the white targets and into the tree line at varying times of the day and at distances of 100 out to 1000 yards. When comparing the glass while looking at a FTR target, there was less of a difference, but I still gave the nod to March. I was able to do a side by side with a March 10-60 one day, but it wasn't very extensive, and the March wasn't mounted on a rifle. At maximum magnification, the March still seemed a hair better.
The main reason I ended up staying with the NF Comp 15-55 was the overall value it gave me. The glass difference in the NF and March was not nearly significant enough to justify the price difference to me. That's my experience with it. I'm not a benchrest shooter, but I did not notice any POI shift. And if I had to guess as to why so many NF are seen for sale in the classifieds, is probably because there are so many of them in existence, and if you've been on this site and/or other shooting enthusiast's forums for very long, you know that the vast majority of us have a tendency to chase the "latest and greatest". I'm not replacing this one with anything though. Just not using it any longer, so that's why I'm going to sell it.
Got my 7-08 back from the gunsmith and mounted one of my old 15-55 Comp's on it, with an EGW base and Burris XTR Sig. rings yesterday:
As soon as I got the scope sighted in I shot a 5-shot group at 100 yds:
I guess the main reason I don't buy the "changing POI" claim with NF's is because once I settle on a load and zero my turrets (on any of my several NF scopes) I may have to dial a click or two on account of environmental factors, but months later I will more often than not find that the settings that work best are still zero/zero. So if the scope is changing POI, what, it is also changing back? If POI is changing, why doesn't it ever keep changing in one direction?
As soon as I got the scope sighted in I shot a 5-shot group at 100 yds:
I guess the main reason I don't buy the "changing POI" claim with NF's is because once I settle on a load and zero my turrets (on any of my several NF scopes) I may have to dial a click or two on account of environmental factors, but months later I will more often than not find that the settings that work best are still zero/zero. So if the scope is changing POI, what, it is also changing back? If POI is changing, why doesn't it ever keep changing in one direction?
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
KY
Several have tried to explain in a nice way your equipment doesn't shoot small enough to recognize any poi you may be having
The group you posted above is good for dead last at most any match
It is BR competitors who cant have the scope moving even .010 at 100yds
Hunters have nothing to fear your NF is good to go
Several have tried to explain in a nice way your equipment doesn't shoot small enough to recognize any poi you may be having
The group you posted above is good for dead last at most any match
It is BR competitors who cant have the scope moving even .010 at 100yds
Hunters have nothing to fear your NF is good to go
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
My kid shoots groups like that fire forming loads for me.. If your scope walks a half minute you could still shoot a group like that.. that is a added 5" + @ 1k yards..
Ray
hoz53
Gold $$ Contributor
well dont take this wrong as my NFs are the best scopes ive ever had but if POI changes 1/2' for one shot, then 1/2' back for the next, then 1/2'' the other way - you get the pic. I think most of the reported POI shift has been on the order of .1 or .2 moa. Still we know it has happened and they should just admit it and move on. Id feel better about buying more of their scopes if they did.
I think Im gonna try one of those Sightron SVSS ED models. Not that ill be selling my NFs, oh and i wish i was as good a shot as your kid. POI shift wont matter for me at all when it comes to the target.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
They don't move all in one shot from the testing I have seen. They walk over a few shots and the pattern is almost identical which leaves me to believe it is repeating. I'm sure they are aware of the problem but you could imagine how many scopes would come back for service if they went public.
I'm not a NF basher, they have some good scopes but the Comp has had it's problems. I actually like NF and feel the are one of the best scope manufacturers. They do a lot for the shootin sports.
Ray
I cannot see .01 at 100 but if an erector tube is going to move once, why would not move again, and again? Over time it would accumulate to .5 and I would certainly see that. Funny, but I never do. There are about four dozen things that can make your POI shift, and not one of them has anything to do with the internals of your scope.
To me the SV ED has nothing but crap reticles. But if people want to believe that Sightron knows how to build solid scopes, but NF didn't when it made the Comp, have at it.
hoz53
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks for the info. I dont have a comp and havent bought one for these reasons. The NFs i do have im happy with.
Zero. I don't buy scopes that spec out crap reticles.
That's what I thought.
I bought my first Nightforce scope about 20 years ago. I have owned three, and still own one. I think they are great scopes,and I have never had a bad word to say about them. Now I own a Sightron, and I believe it to be a good, if not great, scope as well. The fine crosshair and dot reticle is perfect for what I shoot. I've used but haven't owned a NF 15-55. I think it is a great scope.
So....now I have owned and operated both brands....something other people should try when they make comparisons.
Gerry
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