Lets talk about antiquated/out of style reloading practices

[MikeMcCasland]

Long story as to what got me on this track, but I dusted off some old David Tubb and Richard Franklin reloading videos today and watched them; really just for nostalgia's sake. I think both were filmed sometime in the early/mid-90s.

This is my first time watching them in years, and after a few seasons of competitive shooting behind me, it certainly gave me a different perspective on what they were saying. They had some reloading practices that are still core-concepts, but they also had a few that you really don't see much anymore (at least I don't hear about them in F-Class, maybe they're a thing in BR?).

Neck sizing is the obvious one that isn't done anymore, but there was mention of several others.

Indexing case bodies - Tubb was taking a case and spinning it on a NECO gauge to measure run-out of the case body, and indexing it. e. find a high spot in the case body, and cut a small file mark/scratch in the case head to annotate. When you load/shoot the rounds, drop the high spots at the 12:00 position (as an example). This was specific to 2-lug actions.

Inside Neck Reaming - Aside from the new IDOD trimmer, I'm not familiar with anyone who still does this for competitive ammo (at least in F-Class). I can understand the theory behind doing this, but I'm guessing it's probably pretty easy to damage/ruin a piece of brass, thus it's not very common? That or folks are just running more freebore these days to mitigate?

Not chamfering the case mouths - Richard Franklin goes on a bit of a diatribe about never sticking a tool inside a case mouth after you've trimmed it. He was deburring the outside of the case mouth, but polishing the ID of the case with steel wool in a drill.

Primer Pocket Uniforming each firing - Probably not as common due to wet tumblers, but even for folks who don't clean, I don't know anyone who still does this.

Huge focus on concentricity - This is still a thing obviously, but I see it emphasized much less than it used to be. Both Tubb and Franklin were really honing in on the criticality of loading rounds with extremely low run-out. I think folks want low run-out as a general 'best practice', but I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as they're making it out.

Any of ya'll doing these things on brass? I'd love to hear from somebody still indexing cases by run-out.

Ya'll aware of any other 'precision' reloading practices from years past that have fallen out of favor?

No real point to this, just found it amusing and thought I'd share.

 

[Medic505]

Neck sizing isn't dead and gone. Depends on how you mesh-sure your brass.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Dies are better these days (some are) so a lot of those steps are eliminated because of that

 

[Straightshooter1]

Not chamfering the case mouths - Richard Franklin goes on a bit of a diatribe about never sticking a tool inside a case mouth after you've trimmed it. He was deburring the outside of the case mouth, but polishing the ID of the case with steel wool in a drill.

Primer Pocket Uniforming each firing - Probably not as common due to wet tumblers, but even for folks who don't clean, I don't know anyone who still does this.

Huge focus on concentricity - This is still a thing obviously, but I see it emphasized much less than it used to be. Both Tubb and Franklin were really honing in on the criticality of loading rounds with extremely low run-out. I think folks want low run-out as a general 'best practice', but I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as they're making it out.

Any of ya'll doing these things on brass? I'd love to hear from somebody still indexing cases by run-out.

Ya'll aware of any other 'precision' reloading practices from years past that have fallen out of favor?

No real point to this, just found it amusing and thought I'd share.

Chamfering case mouths and uniforming primer pockets are routine operations for me. And I keep primer pockets uniformed as I clean them with a uniformer.

Concentricity is important to me as is most things I do (like annealing after every firing) so that I eliminate as many excuses for not getting accurate or tight groups. I work to keep my cartridges at .001 or less (like +/- .0005). I know that for most of my shooting, I don't need that, but I can't blame a so called flyer on any concentricity issue.

 

[group therapy]

my .02. I still cut the primer holes, only once, I do sort my brass(by weight), I do neck size my short range loads( and they shoot like crazy and never had a problem yet). I do check for concentricity and chamfer the inside of the mouth after trimming(so I can weigh them and know oal is not causing a weight discrepancy), I double check neck dimensions after turning to ensure none slipped by or are different. and im sure countless other things. im looking to shoot REALLY small groups at 600 and go to great lengths to eliminate as many variables as I can. helps with confidence on the line too. I dont know how many folks check the bullets for consistency but I do unless they say "hammer" or "vapor trail" on the outside of the box. but you know, I aint in no record book either so..................................

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Chamfering case mouths and uniforming primer pockets are routine operations for me. And I keep primer pockets uniformed as I clean them with a uniformer.

Concentricity is important to me as is most things I do (like annealing after every firing) so that I eliminate as many excuses for not getting accurate or tight groups. I work to keep my cartridges at .001 or less (like +/- .0005). I know that for most of my shooting, I don't need that, but I can't blame a so called flyer on any concentricity issue.

I chamfer too; I thought it was like a basic principal of reloading. Franklin was talking about never under any circumstance chamfering the inside of the case mouth; even after trimming a case.

The concentricity thing, I've never been able to shoot the difference personally, but don't have strong feelings either way. I prefer straighter ammo to crooked ammo.

@ Dean- That 'mesh-sure' comment made me spit water out. I still had it going in the background and he was talking about mesh-sure'ing as I read it. To be clear, I use the F.Guffey method.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

He was deburring the outside of the case mouth, but polishing the ID of the case with steel wool in a drill.

Wouldn’t you lose your desired carbon in the neck for bullet seating by using his method.

 

[hoz53]

I chamfer too; I thought it was like a basic principal of reloading. Franklin was talking about never under any circumstance chamfering the inside of the case mouth; even after trimming a case.

The concentricity thing, I've never been able to shoot the difference personally, but don't have strong feelings either way. I prefer straighter ammo to crooked ammo.

@ Dean- That 'mesh-sure' comment made me spit water out. I still had it going in the background and he was talking about mesh-sure'ing as I read it. To be clear, I use the F.Guffey method.

i started loading in the 70s and ive always chamfered.

 

[kelbro]

When I saw antiquated / out of style, my first thought was the clothes in my closet.

 

[Fuj]

"Inside Neck Reaming". I won't open this can of worms
too wide but, I do it with a passion, and "Do Not" outside
neck turn. When wild catting, sometimes it's an absolute
necessity. I'll stop here as some start yelling "heresy"

 

[JimSC]

I do primer pockets uniforming on new brass, always chamfer before seating. I have found that by tossing the expander balls and using good bushing dies my ammo comes out concentric but I still randomly check a few rounds. I predict one of these days people will realize that spring brass and spring steel have the hardest Rockwell hardness of any brass/steel and annealers will go the way of the dinosaur

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I do primer pockets uniforming on new brass, always chamfer before seating. I have found that by tossing the expander balls and using good bushing dies my ammo comes out concentric but I still randomly check a few rounds. I predict one of these days people will realize that spring brass and spring steel have the hardest Rockwell hardness of any brass/steel and annealers will go the way of the dinosaur

Eh, I don't know about the annealers. For as much as my AMP cost me, I'm annealing the hell out of everything for the rest of my life. Science be damned!

I am still really curious about the indexing of rounds thing. I've never encountered a 'serious' competitor doing that outside of Tubb in this video.

 

[jelenko]

Has anyone tested what the effect on accuracy is of the various brass prep steps?

 

[AccelR8]

Years ago when I think the assumption was neck sizing resulted in the best accuracy I began to question this, at least in my factory rifles, and experimented. My conclusion was I got measurably better accuracy by full length sizing. I had arrived at pushing the should back a thousandth or two, reasoning this would resize the case body but not work the brass a lot, maintain minimum head space and all that. I had come to the conclusion that in my rifles with likely generously sized chambers, not cut concentric to the bores, full length sizing was best. I guessed that shooters with custom guns and precisely cut chambers and throats were the ones who benefited from neck sizing.

Now years later I find I was ahead of the curve, which doesn't happen often!

 

[dellet]

Eh, I don't know about the annealers. For as much as my AMP cost me, I'm annealing the hell out of everything for the rest of my life. Science be damned!

I am still really curious about the indexing of rounds thing. I've never encountered a 'serious' competitor doing that outside of Tubb in this video.

There are a fair amount of cast bullet shooters, maybe more specific Schuetzen, that not only index the case, but the bullet as well. Many times using a single case to shoot a match. They are often at the top of the scoreboard.

The goal has always been to get the bullet started straight in the bore, with a straight consistent push of the bullet out to the target. the trick is make it repeatable. As tooling and machining has advanced, it takes less work to assemble quality rounds every time.

Looking at old rifles, old technology, old techniques helps me understand the reason behind some of the latest and greatest gadgets.

 

[NorCalMikie]

What it boils down to is, what works best for you.
Got most of my bullets going in the same hole without too much effort so I'll stick yo MY routine.

 

[AccelR8]

What it boils down to is, what works best for you.
Got most of my bullets going in the same hole without too much effort so I'll stick yo MY routine.

I'm usually pretty pleased if most of my bullets go in the same general direction!

 

[Pawnee Bill]

The Lyman 310 Tong Tool was made obsolete, thank goodness!

 

[mikecr]

There is no need for, or even the notion of indexing -when you just go ahead and make straight ammo.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

What it boils down to is, what works best for you.
Got most of my bullets going in the same hole without too much effort so I'll stick yo MY routine.

Agreed. I'm not judging anyone here.

If enough guys tell me they see benefit from sacraficing chickens after they anneal, I'm going to go buy a few chickens, and I'll probably have questions about the optimal knife to use.