• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

6.5 Creedmoor Reloading Issues

Hello, if anyone knows of a newer thread I can move my question.


New to the forum but have been on accurate shooter for years. I wanted to check for any shared experiences. I am running a 28" Criterion 1 in 8 twist and H4350 in my new 6.5CM. Brass is Lapua. My new Criterion barrel is very fast after 250 rounds and I can run H140 ELDMs at 2850 with zero pressure signs at 41 grains. Full length sizing with both Redding type S and Hornady full length.


Finding a repeatable sub 1/2 inch group has been a challenge. I expect more:) I have experimented with seating from lands to .020 jump. I'm running between .400 and .800 on group size with the avg being about .600 inches at 100yds.


Have several rifles that I have tuned to shoot 1/4 inch 5 shot groups. I use, OCW, Satterly..I've reloaded a fair amount which means I know enough to not blow myself up now:)


Is there some secret to finding optimal seating depth with high BC bullets? They seem really fussy...Berger 144, Sierra 142, Hornady 140. So far the H140 has been the best shooter but I'm still averaging about .6 inch 5 shot groups at 2850fps-ish. I can take the barrel off this rifle, slap on my 20 practical barrel and shoot in the .2s - .3s all day. Same everything except barrel, bolt head and caliber.


Again, I have worked up my H4350/H140ELDM loads from 40 grains through 41.7 grains with different seating depths. I am not finding the 5 shot groups I want. 3 shot groups are fine, but we all know the flyer or wacky shot happens on shot 4 or 5. Murphy's Law. And that is the strange thing. Even tried factory ammo in H140 and H147 and got similar results. One or two .5 - .6 inch groups and then the next will be 1.2 inches. I've had several ask if its my shooting. No. Too much bench time. I don't routinely pull shots over a 1/2 inch.


Maybe I should just step down into the 39 grain range with the H4350 and drop the velocity and see if I can find a node that is both wide and consistent in the 2700 fps range.


Criterion makes good stuff - I figured by now I would be shooting in the mid .3s for five shots groups.


Any opinions/thoughts out there? Seems hard to tune compared to other rifles. Geez, I have 4 ARs that shoot tighter groups than my 6.5CM.



Thank you
 
I have the same Criterion barrel for a dual port Savage Target Action. I would start backing down a tenth or two at a time until it eases into a better node.

As far as seating nodes I've always had good results starting at .003" off and coming out .003" at a time until it rolls into a node. Don't think I've ever had to go past .035" off
 
@Walt -Thanks for the feedback. I have not checked the twist. I should. I've only had the barrel for a few weeks and have not shot it at 200 yards yet at paper. I'm all hung up on not being able to shoot tight groups at 100. It's a personal thing. I have seen the stabilization issue you mentioned with my 6BR. It would group the same at 100 and 200 which puzzled me until I got the advice you gave on long bullets stabilizing. I will check twist just to see if it's really an 8.

@DHuffman, do you mind sharing what bullet and powder combo you are running. Mike@Criterion advised to start with the H140 or H147. I am measuring lands with the Hornady tool as a reference or starting point and adding a bit for the headspace difference that their tooled cartridge brings ~.0015. I am having trouble believing the velocity numbers I am seeing. 2840 - 2850 for 41 grains of 4350 and no pressure signs. The velocity doesn't change between 41 and 41.4 grains. At 41.7 there is a jump but not much. I did try the SMk Tipped 130 and was zinginig them out there at 3000 fps. Groups were about an inch. Didn't work on that load but the speed was surprising. Very different than what the load manuals are saying for whatever that's worth.

This thing has such a wide range of velocities I can shoot it at. If I drop back I'm gong to be below 40.5 which I have tested.

Wonder what's better. A tight group at say 2700 - 2750fps or .6 inch group at 2850? ... when shooting past 600yds?
 
I use Berger bullets and load to the middle of the Berger recommendations. Speed is not necessarily your best friend. Also I would try lighter bullets. Berger makes the bullets and knows the dynamics of their design.
 
@sr67

Most recently 135 Atips then 142 SMKs before that. I was using H4350s and getting the same speeds you report off the 41 g with the 142s in an 8 twist 28" Criterion full bull barrel.

Nothing wrong with shooting a more accurate slower load if you're chasing the best accuracy you can find.
 
Last edited:
I screwed around with a lot of bullets with good results out
of my 24" 8 twist Criterion.....Hornady Brass, WLR primers,
a flat 42 grains of Reloder-16, and 140 RDF's at .015 off
the lands. I get 2750 with a low ES and SD, and in the .3's
at 500. I did shoot a .229 moa at 500, but have not repeated it
yet. Next best was .306 moa with the RDF's.....I will note the RDF's
like a higher neck tension in my barrel.
 
Last edited:
The 140 ELDs and other in the ELD line shoot great at .020" off but you can try farther. They don't always have to be close. I load them at .020" off but I also shoot factory that is .070" off and shoots great.

That barrel is not really fast as for a 28" that's about right. That said a slower more accurate load might work better for you. I would play around with it some in the lower nodes. I shoot factory ammo in matches and some is 2750fps and no issues hitting at 1200 yards.
 
@sr67, maybe your barrel doesn't like the RL16 so much.
What other powders have you tried?
I'm stuck on H4831SC in my 6five, it might have a lower velocity than the RL16, but I dont think you'll find it lacking in accuracy with a variety of bullets.
45gr is pushing a 136scenar L @2740, with a 22" barrel.
 
Did you see pressure signs at 41.7gns and if not what made you stop there? I would personally try higher charge weights and see what accuracy you get, subject to any primer cratering or ejector marks on the brass. You didn't say what rifle you are using so the characteristics of that may be the limiting factor, including the rest set up etc. There is a fair bit more recoil with the 6.5 compared to the practical, is the design of the rifle/rest set up causing flyers maybe?
 
I have the same Criterion barrel for a dual port Savage Target Action. I would start backing down a tenth or two at a time until it eases into a better node.

Me too.

FWIW after a lot of 6.5CM experience with different powders and bullets, everything from H4350-RL-16-H43831-etc. etc. the very best ended up being the Nosler 140RDF with 6.5StaBall powder.
 
Me too.

FWIW after a lot of 6.5CM experience with different powders and bullets, everything from H4350-RL-16-H43831-etc. etc. the very best ended up being the Nosler 140RDF with 6.5StaBall powder.

I just got in my first 8 lb jug of Staball for my SA284 wild cat.
That 7mm really woke up with this powder. I don't know if I'd
spend time with it the way R-16 is doing, but i got this 30"
7.5 twist Brux blank in the vault. I may do a cat on that barrel,
and if not, I bet the 144 Bergers would be a good pairing with
Staball and a faster twist. I keep reading that Staball is supposed
to be in the H4350 burn area. In that short .284 of mine, the
numbers are showing in between R-16, and H4831sc.....I ordered
in a jug of Ramshot Hunter, a slower kissing cousin of Staball but
faster then H4831sc. Getting my bases covered so to speak.
 
Hello, if anyone knows of a newer thread I can move my question.


New to the forum but have been on accurate shooter for years. I wanted to check for any shared experiences. I am running a 28" Criterion 1 in 8 twist and H4350 in my new 6.5CM. Brass is Lapua. My new Criterion barrel is very fast after 250 rounds and I can run H140 ELDMs at 2850 with zero pressure signs at 41 grains. Full length sizing with both Redding type S and Hornady full length.


Finding a repeatable sub 1/2 inch group has been a challenge. I expect more:) I have experimented with seating from lands to .020 jump. I'm running between .400 and .800 on group size with the avg being about .600 inches at 100yds.


Have several rifles that I have tuned to shoot 1/4 inch 5 shot groups. I use, OCW, Satterly..I've reloaded a fair amount which means I know enough to not blow myself up now:)


Is there some secret to finding optimal seating depth with high BC bullets? They seem really fussy...Berger 144, Sierra 142, Hornady 140. So far the H140 has been the best shooter but I'm still averaging about .6 inch 5 shot groups at 2850fps-ish. I can take the barrel off this rifle, slap on my 20 practical barrel and shoot in the .2s - .3s all day. Same everything except barrel, bolt head and caliber.


Again, I have worked up my H4350/H140ELDM loads from 40 grains through 41.7 grains with different seating depths. I am not finding the 5 shot groups I want. 3 shot groups are fine, but we all know the flyer or wacky shot happens on shot 4 or 5. Murphy's Law. And that is the strange thing. Even tried factory ammo in H140 and H147 and got similar results. One or two .5 - .6 inch groups and then the next will be 1.2 inches. I've had several ask if its my shooting. No. Too much bench time. I don't routinely pull shots over a 1/2 inch.


Maybe I should just step down into the 39 grain range with the H4350 and drop the velocity and see if I can find a node that is both wide and consistent in the 2700 fps range.


Criterion makes good stuff - I figured by now I would be shooting in the mid .3s for five shots groups.


Any opinions/thoughts out there? Seems hard to tune compared to other rifles. Geez, I have 4 ARs that shoot tighter groups than my 6.5CM.



Thank you
Try a different bullet. I like the 142 grain Sierra Matchking.
 
@sr67, maybe your barrel doesn't like the RL16 so much.
What other powders have you tried?
I'm stuck on H4831SC in my 6five, it might have a lower velocity than the RL16, but I dont think you'll find it lacking in accuracy with a variety of bullets.
45gr is pushing a 136scenar L @2740, with a 22" barrel.
I didn't see him saying he was using RL16 but he mentioned H4350.
I would try two things:
1. DO try RL16! I have had fantastic results with it in all things 6.5 (Creedmoor and 6.5-47L). Accuracy nodes are usually very wide and easy to find.
2. Find some 6.5 Creedmoor brass with large primer pockets. While the 6.5-47L is happy with small rifle primers (smaller case volume) the 6.5 Creedmoor really tends to be spotty with them. Hornady brass has been the best performer for me and I've been shooting 6.5 Creedmoor since 2009. You might also look at Starline. One friend says he is having very good service from it and it is large primer pocket.
As most others say, don't get hung up on speed. I would think, unless shooting this rifle in long range BR matches, that getting good velocities and the type accuracy your barrel displays now would be enough for punching steel.
 
I would also try some different brass if you haven't. I have been shooting with Hornady brass since 2008 and never had an accuracy issue with all my Creedmoor barrels. If you wanted to try some I can send you some once fired to try.

I also agree that you should keep working up if you are not hitting pressure at 41.7. I know a lot of people find their load between 42-43grns of H4350.
 
I ordered in a jug of Ramshot Hunter,

That powder worked really well with 120-123 bullets in my 6.5CM

Impressed with what you are doing with the SA284. Very interested in the outcome.
 
Hello,

Great feedback. I wanted to respond to a few questions to see if I can learn something. A lot of great info.

I have only used H4350 as this is my first 6.5 CM and I have only had the 6.5CM for a little over a month. Once I do a bit more testing I might try a different powder. My experience has been that you might see a small change in group size with a new powder but I'm not likely to see a reduction by 50% in group size with a different powder with a similar burn rate. I've been down that road and I've generally found that if you are shooting one of the top powders for a cartridge then a big problem like my group sizes and flyers is likey bullet choice, seating depth or charge or my barrel just sucks. Feel free to debate. Won't hurt my feelings. I know less every time I hit the reloading press:)

I have two dies for resizing. I have tried fl sizing with the redding type s and the hornady standard fl size die. Never have mixed dies in a test group. Just looking to control neck tension better with the type s, and a mandrel. I don't use the expander ball with the type s. I'm not saying it's bad, just not my preference.

The way I arrived at roughly 2850fps as a node was that my velocity was flat from about 40 to 41.4. I thought about going higher but I did start to ask why push it harder. But, maybe there is another solid node up there. Won't hurt to try. My gut could be wrong but I've pushed rifles in the past hard enough to pop primers which I admit is not smart. A rifle is a machine that was designed to do x amount of work. If you go very far past that you just stress the system. But, I think it's worth seeing if there is another node above or around 41.7. It is not my end goal to hot rod this thing.

I have only shot Starline brass with small primer / CCI450s. There are a ton of shooters who swear by the small primer brass in the 6.5 and 6mm variants for accuracy. Many will argue over the small vs. large primer 6.5 brass. I don't have any info to suggest that it makes enough difference to cause flyers all the time and make my groups way larger than they should be. I am just looking for consistent groups and would like to see .4" or a little less. Plan to shoot long range varmint and F class with this.

Case capacity with the starline and my setup is not an issue. I can get at least to 43g without being compressed. I would love to test it out if someone wants. I have Lapua brass but have not introduced it into the testing. Too many variables and too many people getting great results with starline to change that now. Again, if I was shooting .5" groups and I wanted .3" groups I would make a brass change or powder change. I am not even close to that right now.

I have shot groups with box hornady factory 140 and 147 ELDMs and they were .5" to over 1" and very inconsistent (flyers). Both had considerable jump and both shot the same as my hand loads that I load within 20k of the lands. The factory loads just cost a lot more. Again, groups were about the same anyways so I didn't learn anything from shooting the factory hornady loads. My Criterion barrel doesn't like them.

The two bullets I have tested the most are the H140 and SMK142. I got identical results with both. Even my velocities are identical with both. That is the only thing that has been consistent so far with this barrel...my groups are not consistent.

I turned 30 necks of the starline down to 13k and shot groups with that brass hoping to find a magic bullet. No change at all with turned necks.

I anneal every other reload. Brass lasts longer.

I throw powder with 1 of 3 of my RCBS chargemasters. In a single reload group, I do not mix powder throws from different chargemasters. The scales drift. Mostly a personal thing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK. Here is what I've got.

I probably need to consider finding another node below where I started and maybe above where I am now. Time for a better ladder test. Before, I threw out 2750 as a lower velocity but I wasn't being deterministic. The node will be where it will be. I'm gong to shoot another ladder and get a more thorough node analysis both lower and higher than where I am at now. Given that I'm new to the cartridge, I was just being careful not to push it too hard. but I get the point. My 20P with a match barrel, comes to life at ~3900 fps. It likes to be run hot if you want those very tiny groups. I have experienced that with several rifles actually. With this 6.5, I would rather have a decent group and really stable velocity. It's future mission is 1000 yards.

Once I get into a node that I want to explore, I'm gong to try out jumping further out. After reading everything twice here, jumping is the one thing I have Not explored. If I do jump out to 40k or 50k is it OK to move 5k at a time? I usually do 3k increments but that's going to take a lot of rounds.

Also, any suggestions on charge start and stop points with the ladder test. Maybe start at 39 grains and take it up to 42.5 unless I start to see signs of pressure? Any suggestions on increments. Votes for .3 or .5 grain increments? I always do .3 but I'm wondering if it's too small of a change in charge weight.

Once I find my nodes, time to test the jump. I suppose I could start at 20k and do 25, 30, 35, 40...out to 50ish. Kind of wondering how far to take this.

thx always...
 
Hello,

Great feedback. I wanted to respond to a few questions to see if I can learn something. A lot of great info.

I have only used H4350 as this is my first 6.5 CM and I have only had the 6.5CM for a little over a month. Once I do a bit more testing I might try a different powder. My experience has been that you might see a small change in group size with a new powder but I'm not likely to see a reduction by 50% in group size with a different powder with a similar burn rate. I've been down that road and I've generally found that if you are shooting one of the top powders for a cartridge then a big problem like my group sizes and flyers is likey bullet choice, seating depth or charge or my barrel just sucks. Feel free to debate. Won't hurt my feelings. I know less every time I hit the reloading press:)

I have two dies for resizing. I have tried fl sizing with the redding type s and the hornady standard fl size die. Never have mixed dies in a test group. Just looking to control neck tension better with the type s, and a mandrel. I don't use the expander ball with the type s. I'm not saying it's bad, just not my preference.

The way I arrived at roughly 2850fps as a node was that my velocity was flat from about 40 to 41.4. I thought about going higher but I did start to ask why push it harder. But, maybe there is another solid node up there. Won't hurt to try. My gut could be wrong but I've pushed rifles in the past hard enough to pop primers which I admit is not smart. A rifle is a machine that was designed to do x amount of work. If you go very far past that you just stress the system. But, I think it's worth seeing if there is another node above or around 41.7. It is not my end goal to hot rod this thing.

I have only shot Starline brass with small primer / CCI450s. There are a ton of shooters who swear by the small primer brass in the 6.5 and 6mm variants for accuracy. Many will argue over the small vs. large primer 6.5 brass. I don't have any info to suggest that it makes enough difference to cause flyers all the time and make my groups way larger than they should be. I am just looking for consistent groups and would like to see .4" or a little less. Plan to shoot long range varmint and F class with this.

Case capacity with the starline and my setup is not an issue. I can get at least to 43g without being compressed. I would love to test it out if someone wants. I have Lapua brass but have not introduced it into the testing. Too many variables and too many people getting great results with starline to change that now. Again, if I was shooting .5" groups and I wanted .3" groups I would make a brass change or powder change. I am not even close to that right now.

I have shot groups with box hornady factory 140 and 147 ELDMs and they were .5" to over 1" and very inconsistent (flyers). Both had considerable jump and both shot the same as my hand loads that I load within 20k of the lands. The factory loads just cost a lot more. Again, groups were about the same anyways so I didn't learn anything from shooting the factory hornady loads. My Criterion barrel doesn't like them.

The two bullets I have tested the most are the H140 and SMK142. I got identical results with both. Even my velocities are identical with both. That is the only thing that has been consistent so far with this barrel...my groups are not consistent.

I turned 30 necks of the starline down to 13k and shot groups with that brass hoping to find a magic bullet. No change at all with turned necks.

I anneal every other reload. Brass lasts longer.

I throw powder with 1 of 3 of my RCBS chargemasters. In a single reload group, I do not mix powder throws from different chargemasters. The scales drift. Mostly a personal thing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK. Here is what I've got.

I probably need to consider finding another node below where I started and maybe above where I am now. Time for a better ladder test. Before, I threw out 2750 as a lower velocity but I wasn't being deterministic. The node will be where it will be. I'm gong to shoot another ladder and get a more thorough node analysis both lower and higher than where I am at now. Given that I'm new to the cartridge, I was just being careful not to push it too hard. but I get the point. My 20P with a match barrel, comes to life at ~3900 fps. It likes to be run hot if you want those very tiny groups. I have experienced that with several rifles actually. With this 6.5, I would rather have a decent group and really stable velocity. It's future mission is 1000 yards.

Once I get into a node that I want to explore, I'm gong to try out jumping further out. After reading everything twice here, jumping is the one thing I have Not explored. If I do jump out to 40k or 50k is it OK to move 5k at a time? I usually do 3k increments but that's going to take a lot of rounds.

Also, any suggestions on charge start and stop points with the ladder test. Maybe start at 39 grains and take it up to 42.5 unless I start to see signs of pressure? Any suggestions on increments. Votes for .3 or .5 grain increments? I always do .3 but I'm wondering if it's too small of a change in charge weight.

Once I find my nodes, time to test the jump. I suppose I could start at 20k and do 25, 30, 35, 40...out to 50ish. Kind of wondering how far to take this.

thx always...
You have gotten great advice here and along with your own obvious knowledge on the subject. Why not switch to the Lapua brass you have on hand and take the Starline out of the equation and see if that changes it up for the better?
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,584
Messages
2,199,346
Members
79,004
Latest member
4590 Shooter
Back
Top