6.5 Creedmoor Reloading Issues

[shoot4fun]

@sr67 you have confused me now. Your original post said you were using ONLY Lapua brass (which is small primer) but now you say you used ONLY Starline? My understanding is Starline is LRP brass so which are you using?
Now, may I address your "groups"? What do they generally look like with this particular rifle? That could tell a lot about where the problem lies. Maybe the recoil impulse of this one is different and the way you handle it causes the flyers.

 

[sr67]

Hi, I did mistakenly say I was using lapua brass instead of starline in my first post. I have only used starline in my testing with this rifle. I do have a new box of 6.5CM lapua but I have not introduced it yet. Too many variables.


I corrected that comment in a post on page 1 ... see below.


* "Case capacity with the starline and my setup is not an issue. I can get at least to 43g without being compressed. I would love to test it out if someone wants. I have Lapua brass but have not introduced it into the testing. Too many variables and too many people getting great results with starline to change that now. Again, if I was shooting .5" groups and I wanted .3" groups I would make a brass change or powder change. I am not even close to that right now."


Concerning recoil, this is a 20lb rifle with a radial break done by Criterion when they made the barrel. There is virtually no recoil to speak of that would impact me at 6' 2" 220. It's way less than my AR10. I am very comfortable with this stock/action/trigger - I am not causing the flyers. I have 3 years of archived targets from this platform in another caliber and when I pull a shot and ruin a group I'm at .5 inches not 1+ inches. Again, I might ruin a .25" - .35" inch group and blow it out to 1/2 inch. I shoot off of a concrete bench using a front and rear rest taking the amount of time necessary to be very precise. I can't always shoot a 1/4 inch group but I can shoot in the .3's 95% of the time.


My results are just strange. Let me see if I can upload a few pictures that show the group sizes along with how the flyers are coming out. Keep in mind, some guys are going to say, hey, it's sub MOA that's good enough. It might be if this was an off the shelf rifle. But, that's why I order hand lapped custom barrels. I'm not OK with .8 inch or so avg. groups.


OK, I'm no pro shooter but I can shoot tight groups. Now I will say from a bipod with no rear rest I don't shoot sub 1/2 inch groups. That's more of a challenge. That puts me in the .5" to .8" range. But, I don't test with that.

 

[LVLAaron]

For what it's worth, I have a custom 6.5 that shoots tiny knots with Berger 140's. Never got it to shoot better than half-ish MOA with hornady 140's.

 

[Zero333]

Have you tried different primers ?

 

[sr67]

Are you talking about the Berger 144 VLDs?

 

[sr67]

I have only used the CCi450s. Have had really good results for years with them. Do you think a primer would make the difference between a .6 and 1 or 1.2" group?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

SR67 - A couple of thoughts after reading through your posts.

1.) Don't look for nodes based on the chronograph. Sometimes it works, but other times it'll have you chasing your tail. I would strongly advise bumping it back to 40gr, and working up in .2gr increments. Then, look for vertical on the target. Sometimes it's helpful to shoot at 200 or 300 yards, which will afford you greater resolution on target. Most importantly though, let the target dictate your load development. The chronograph is really just there to tell you if you're in the target velocity range, and for drops. etc.

2.) Once you've identified 2-3 charges that impact a vertical plane, go back and work depth in .003-.005" increments starting from .005 off. You will find a depth node doing this. Guaranteed. Yes it's slow/methodical, but you'll find it every time...and it sounds like you've already burned through a few components trying to fast-track load dev. Burn through a few more and do it right.

3.) I'd limit all testing to one sizing die for now. Neck tension matters greatly, but you're really playing around with too many variables at once (even for an experienced re-loader). I would recommend going with the Type-S and putting .001-.002 tension on the bullet. And do this by measurement (on a sized/non-expanded case), not by what's marked on the bushing, because often times they size differently than they're marked. Mandrel expand if possible, but not required.

4.) Some Creedmoor barrels don't like H4350. Hard to believe I know, but I've had a couple. I will say if H4350 doesn't work all that well, RL16 or H4831SC usually does. RL16 will be a hair faster than H4350, and H4831SC will usually be a bit slower. Still.... .6 MOA isn't terrible, but it can/should do better. I will typically try both H4350 & RL16 on my first outings with a 6.5CM barrel, and I've never had one of those powders not shoot.

5.) I agree with others on the bullets too. 142SMKs and 140 Hybrids are stupid easy to find loads for, but generally so are the 140/147s...they just don't hold together.

I run alpha brass in mine, which I believe has a lower capacity than Lapua, but I can pretty well guarantee every new tube will tune in at 40.3gr-41gr of H4350 or RL16. It's really just one range trip to find the powder node, then just a matter of depth, and it's one holding. 27"-30" barrels will typically tune in around ~2750-2825 for me with most 140 class bullets.

Edit: I'm speaking specifically of the SAAMI .199fb chamber.

Good luck.

 

[Evan]

Add IMR4350, RL-17, H4831 (old school, not sc), and IMR4831 to the list of powders that have tuned in at the 40-41.5gn range, at least for me. I'm jumping 147ELD a country mile to the lands with magazine length restrictions in my RPR. At one point about 1000 rounds ago, I measured it to be about a 0.100" jump or so to the lands. Long, long ways.

I think the point I'd make is that if a powder isn't showing you anything promising quickly, then move on to something different. There are a wide variety of powders that are appropriate burn rate and your rifle may just be picky. Tuning the powder charge has never made a "meh" powder shoot well for me. My universal experience has been that when I get the right powder in there, it almost doesn't matter how much of it I run, it'll shoot small at close range (300yds and in). All I'm doing by tuning the charge weight is stabilizing the change to POI across atmospheric density changes.

 

[Jesswil61]

Add IMR4350, RL-17, H4831 (old school, not sc), and IMR4831 to the list of powders that have tuned in at the 40-41.5gn range, at least for me. I'm jumping 147ELD a country mile to the lands with magazine length restrictions in my RPR. At one point about 1000 rounds ago, I measured it to be about a 0.100" jump or so to the lands. Long, long ways.

I have found this to be very true with all of my 6.5's going out of the norm for jump and also with the longer bullets a slower node has shown better grouping.

 

[Rob01]

Evan you using the mag that came with the RPR? Those are AR10 mags. Buy some AICS mags and you can get OAL longer in the mags.

 

[sr67]

@MikeMcCasland

I appreciate the response. Makes sense. I lot of people try to be helpful but I look for real detail.

I wanted to ask, hopefully you don't mind, do shoot 3 shot or 5 shots per charge and do you shoot the different charges in a round robin?

I can definitely do this at 200 yards and might be able to get the range to let me take it out to 300.

Have to get some reloader 16 or 17 first if I can find it.

You mentioned that the Hornadys tend to fall apart. I'm assuming you mean the groups down the road. I have a new box of Berger Hybrid VLD 144s. Shot all of my SMKs. Might start with Bergers and Lapua brass instead.

I'm just wondering if 200 yards is really far enough to see enough of a difference.

 

[Rob01]

I can write long drawn out posts but when people ask you questions and you don’t answer them it’s hard to help you. Good luck. I’m out.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

@MikeMcCasland

I appreciate the response. Makes sense. I lot of people try to be helpful but I look for real detail.

I wanted to ask, hopefully you don't mind, do shoot 3 shot or 5 shots per charge and do you shoot the different charges in a round robin?

I can definitely do this at 200 yards and might be able to get the range to let me take it out to 300.

Have to get some reloader 16 or 17 first if I can find it.

You mentioned that the Hornadys tend to fall apart. I'm assuming you mean the groups down the road. I have a new box of Berger Hybrid VLD 144s. Shot all of my SMKs. Might start with Bergers and Lapua brass instead.

I'm just wondering if 200 yards is really far enough to see enough of a difference.

I shoot 5, but lots of guys on here will shoot 3-shot groups, or even two 3-shot groups of the same charge to determine the node. I think it depends on your own confidence in your ability to put perfect shots down range.

I think 200 yards is better than 100. Although some may disagree (go look at Erik Cortina's '1000 yard load development at 100 yard' thread), I think the further away you can get (to about ~600 yards, where conditions really start coming into play) the better.

I'll show a couple of examples that illustrate this point. One is a 6.5CM, and the other is a .308. Both of these targets show ragged 1-hole groups at 100, and it was impossible (for me) to discern which was the best. As I moved them out to 300 you could see distinct differences.


6.5CM Example: This was moving a 140 Hybrid back in .005" increments @300 yards.

This is a .308 at 300 yards testing neck tension...I worked it from a .335 bushing down to a .332 bushing and mandreled each up. I don't have a photo of the smaller bushings, but the groups kept expanding ever so slightly as the bushings got tighter.



All of these minor tweaks to the load would have been difficult to impossible to perceive at 100 yards. Perhaps someone more skilled at reading targets could do it, I don't know. I just know that distance helps me.

As far as powders, I'd run RL16 way before I'd think of going with RL17. It'll probably be difficult to find right now.

The Hornady bullets falling apart, that was a bit of a tongue in cheek comment. If you're not shooting in long strings of fire (i.e. in competition) it probably won't affect you. That said, some of the ELDMs have been prone to coming apart in flight.

As far as switching brass, I don't know that you need to. I've never shot the starline stuff, but from an accuracy standpoint it's likely not holding you back. Primer pocket longevity vs. Lapua or other 'premium' brands is another story.

The moral of the story is 'stop switching things up' (i.e. control your variables), adopt a methodical load development strategy, and extend the distance to more easily see changes on target.

 

[sr67]

@MikeMcCasland - Thank you for taking the time to post the pics and explain. Your results speak for themselves. I have to find a way to do this at 300 yards.

I also really appreciate everyone's input. Learned a lot here. Lots of respect for the experience on this site.

 

[sr67]

@Rob01 - It was your post that really got me thinking that I was way off on my approach to seating depth. I had already taken that as a something I had to change. Thank you as well.

 

[sr67]

@MikeMcCasland - Oh, Dang, just looked at your targets again. I had first thought, .6ish groups that's OK for 100. That's awesome at 300 yards. Nice. I've shot a few .5 inch groups at 200 out of my 6 BR. Not quite as impressive.

 

[ebb]

Are you on double top secret probation? Most Creedmoor shooters know about the top secret South Carolina load. Do a search for the secret South Carolina load for 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[B muzguy]

I built Savage lrp with a 28in shilen select match 8 twist 6.5 Creedmoor it would not shoot 140 grain projectiles. So I went for the 123 Lapua scenar and it absolutely hammers 44 grains of h4350 CCI benchrest primer Hornady brass. Just did some more testing yesterday with Burger 130 grain hybrids at 500 yards same load as above . inch and a quarter at 500 yards I suggest you go for the 130 grain Berger hybrid work up though, I have absolutely no pressure on the brass and this is the fifth firing on brass. Jumping ten thousands

With the 140 projectiles at a hundred yards I was only getting five eighths of an inch at 100 yards that is not accurate enough for me. The 123 and 130 grain projectiles shoot quarter inch at 100 yards easy. I was upset for a long time cuz I could not get 140 to perform. but after getting the 130 hybrids developed ...and hitting a 22 by 18 inch steel at 1000 and getting all your dope corrected then I aim at the 6-inch Steel and can hit it four out of five times. impressive muzzle velocity of 3100 feet per second

 

[Hohn]

I find it hard to believe that a quality match barrel has not a single 140 gr bullet that can be made to shoot if it will stabilize them.

The Carolina load is no secret. And it doesn't work for everyone. But H4831 and slower powders in 6.5 are worth investigating. H4350 is NOT the only game in town for 6.5. I thought I was bucking the trends when I adopted RL16 as my main go-to for 6.5. But then I switched to RL26 and really learned what bucking conventional wisdom was. (my oem Savage 26" barrel will shoot 140s to 2850 and 0.6" to 0.8" with RL26 and 140 RDF or hdy 140 BTHPs). And no pressure in Hdy, starline, or Pete brass.

I'm one of those guys that thing seating depth is more important than charge weights. You don't necessarily have to be in a perfect node for charge weights-- sometimes it's hard to know exactly where they are. You just can't be in a bad spot.

Try this: instead of looking for the charge weight that has the smallest groups, try to find the TWO charge weights that are obvious transition points between POI shifts. If you can find awful groups at 39.8gr and 42gr, then I guarantee you that splitting that difference and shooting 41.0 will put you in a good spot for charge weight.

After that, it's all about bullet jump and neck tension.

JMO

 

[ebb]

When the first hint of using 4831 in a Creedmoor came to this web site the title of the thread was " top secret South Carolina load". I thought it amusing since I had been using H4831 in my 6.5 for over 15 years (not a Creedmoor). I am not wanting to buck any trends, I want my gun to shoot its best and what the next guy is doing means nothing to me. It may not be bucking a trend but my 6.5 shoots better with VV165 than any of the others Ive tried.