2020 NRA F-Class National Championship MATCH DIRECTOR’S BULLETIN #1

[dannyjbiggs]

I am the Match Director that initiated the conversations with the NRA and the email was part of a long chain of emails. I do not feel compelled to add any more fuel to this fire Please note that it is well within the purvey of the Match Director to invoke a rule for a competition as long as it is cleared with the NRA and does not rebuke, or is in conflict with an existing rule.

It is my hope that we can come to an agreement on a rule that covers this issue that is more exacting and will create less back and forth. I have seen suggestions that would be better in addressing this issue and would leave less room for subjectiveness on behalf of the observer.

On page 6 of this blog, I made a statement to the effect "if you want to prove to others that you don't have groove tracking on your mind, and you want to prove that to yourself also, just turn the carpet over, pile down". It should be a surface that performs in the spirit of F-TR.

In my email reply to Peter after reading the email from the NRA, one of the things I suggested to do...and this would be for any carpet pile type...is to try this experiment with skate-blade bipod feet: Turn the skate-blade feet on the bipod legs so that the skates run perpendicularly to the line of recoil. If the shooter's experience is not unlike when the feet run with the line of recoil, and he is willing to shoot this style bipod thereafter (especially on fluffable carpet), obviously he does not have even a whimsical bit of groove tracking on his mind, and we don't have a groove tracking concern.

I can assure you this, there would be no problem with that style "feet" orientation on the mat that I used in F-TR (See page 10).

Dan

 

[Warren Dean]

Except it IS F-Open’s business, because that’s where they will shoot. There is an F-Open rule that says exactly what the TR Rule says about a tracking bipod.

When was the last time you saw an Open shooter using a bipod? Last I recall is when Danny Biggs did it years ago. It was a one-off and he did very well with it. I'm sure someone else did it as well, but it is highly unusual to see it.

Methinks you just enjoy stirring the pot a little too much.

 

[Warren Dean]

Is there ever discussion about joy stick adjustable bipods? That would seem to be an order of magnitude greater issue regarding spirit of the sport to me.

It is still a bipod.....

 

[MattPeetz]

It is still a bipod.....

Thought you were out Warren lol lol

 

[Warren Dean]

Thought you were out Warren lol lol

Dude...you know me better than that.

I can't let this corrosive crap by trouble makers go unanswered.

 

[MattPeetz]

Dude...you know me better than that.

I can't let this corrosive crap by trouble makers go unanswered.

lol lol

 

[Medic505]

 

[Acyr]

In addition to what Stingray said, this issue was brought up to the NRA High Power Committee and was to be discussed and decided on at the April meeting, but COVID hit and the meeting was cancelled. That was unfortunate to say the least.

And to the NRA's credit they decided that a Match Director's Bulletin was the only timely way to get this information out to the shooters. Contrary to what some are saying, the NRA has the best interest of the sport at heart and are curbing what they agreed was a "right on the edge" (my words) innovation that could lead to the spirit of the rules being thwarted. Take a good look at what Walt Walters and John Seigler had to say about it. They know what is actually going on as opposed to speculation and gossip.

The bipod/mat setup in question was not the reason said shooter won. He won with pure skill, plain and simple. Anyone who knows him can attest to the fact that he is an outstanding shooter. But the bipod/mat combo was deemed to be dangerously close to being something that would go beyond the spirit of the rules, so it was shut down. And it was brought to the attention of SWN staff by a person that had nothing to do with any team of any sort.

Maybe if more people would concern themselves with preserving the integrity of the sport, rather than carping about ridiculous nonsense, we could move past this....This sort of crap is why I abandoned Facebook. Too many "Keyboard High Masters" running their mouths and stirring up trouble.

Peace, out.

Damn it Warren, you nailed it!

 

[Warren Dean]

I'm confident I'll get slammed for this but we see it all the time. No, it's not a national event but about 25% of our shooters would show up using RPR, Savage tacticals, and all kinds of bolt guns off a bipod. F-class gives us 2 places to put them....FTR or Open. A 6.5 CM, 6 dasher PRS gun, and whatever variation you can imagine shows up. They must go open because of the caliber. Nobody ever gave 2 craps about it because it promoted the sport, supported the club with match fees and they would compete for class awards that no true Fopen shooter would want. Someone has to win the MK, SS, EX classes and it's actually damn competitive between them.

And when these were state and regional matches the "real" F open guys were thrilled to get an extra DR step or NRA Regional Medallion because of this extra participation. Heck, I think there were a few .308s then ended up in TR to add a medal at times.

In the course of the year that was thousands of dollars for our club. And they continue to show up year after year shooting the same guns off bipods and I'm not talking FTR bipods. And when a guy makes Expert class he's legitimately excited and I'm happy for him. I'm not going to be that HM that scoffs at him and considers him irrelevant.

So when people say I am whining because I don't like how the rule is written so be it. Someone needs to stand up for other guys that don't have a voice against the national stage.....if this is purely written for a national event I don't care....but if adopted in the official HP rules...where do we put these people? The sport is more than the nationals and sponsored shooters. Dare I say the nationals aren't where we need to encourage participation. It's the local events that foster the growth into full on TR and Fopen. That's how I started. .308 Rem Varmint off bipod and then evolved into what I have now....something I have to warn people about as it's not a normal looking or even slightly practical gun.

So yes, I don't like poorly thought out rules that are written for a small group of participants. Do I agree with the intent of the rule? 100%. But as written it's going to throw others into no mans land. When I invite someone to shoot I tell them to bring what they have and have fun. 100% of the time that will be off a bipod....harris style. Add a little rain and mud and that bipod is on a mat of some type. Now illegal. Sorry. That is NOT SPIRIT of the class.

Well, Bob....F-T/R rules were not written for the new breed of "tactical" (God, I hate that adjective!!) shooters. It was written for the pure F-T/R discipline. Like it or not, that is what F-T/R is. And I intend to do whatever I can to keep it that way.

I can't argue against your observations about the tactical crowd having to shoot in F-Open due to their caliber choice. They made that choice. Are they grousing about it or is it you making the noise? It is a good thing for sure that more shooters are coming out to shoot at your matches. And I agree that local matches are a fine developing ground for aspiring F-Class shooters.

It all comes down to playing a specific game by that game's rules. I would love to play professional golf, but i don't have the equipment or skill set to do it. Should the PGA be required to alter the rules just so I can play because I want to? Nope. Ask Casey Martin how that worked out for him. Altering the rules is an insult to the competitors that play by the rules.

BTW...bipod carpet mats are NOT illegal. Please just stop with the knee jerk reaction, OK?

Peace, out.

 

[davidjoe]

When was the last time you saw an Open shooter using a bipod? Last I recall is when Danny Biggs did it years ago. It was a one-off and he did very well with it. I'm sure someone else did it as well, but it is highly unusual to see it.

Methinks you just enjoy stirring the pot a little too much.

I do not understand your point, Warren. I was the last person I saw using a bipod in F-Open. I have no issues with their use.

After all these posts, do you honestly think I don’t want to shoot against bipods in Open, or, that just maybe the rule issues, actually are the issue?

I have suggested above, temporarily set aside or strike that tracking bipod rule in Open, or at least explain how it’s not a problem in running a rule compliant match.

Just this afternoon, kzin did offer the first answer. I was glad to see it by the way. A rare, direct on point reply.

He said, and I believe it, that the plain-as-day prohibition against a tracking bipod in F-Open is going to be interpreted to allow bipod tracking in the rest material, in Open. So, I’ll say, I guess that sure explains that, Warren.

Listen, some of you guys, despite liking to read and post freely here yourselves on this, have hit your patience limit on all that “troublemaking” thought provocation coming from me, so just have at it, no hard feelings, can’t even tell who half of you are.

I’m hoping for a good match and great time as all the other ones have been.

 

[Tempest]

When was the last time you saw an Open shooter using a bipod? Last I recall is when Danny Biggs did it years ago. It was a one-off and he did very well with it. I'm sure someone else did it as well, but it is highly unusual to see it.

Methinks you just enjoy stirring the pot a little too much.

Ditto we shot with Danny couple years ago and he shot F open with bipod and did very well.

 

[Warren Dean]

I do not understand your point, Warren. I was the last person I saw using a bipod in F-Open. I have no issues with their use.

After all these posts, do you honestly think I don’t want to shoot against bipods in Open, or, that just maybe the rule issues, actually are the issue?

I have suggested above, temporarily set aside or strike that tracking bipod rule in Open, or at least explain how it’s not a problem in running a rule compliant match.

Just this afternoon, kzin did offer the first answer. I was glad to see it by the way. A rare, direct on point reply.

He said, and I believe it, that the plain-as-day prohibition against a tracking bipod in F-Open is going to be interpreted to allow bipod tracking in the rest material, in Open. So, I’ll say, I guess that sure explains that, Warren.

Listen, some of you guys, despite liking to read and post freely here yourselves on this, have hit your patience limit on all that “troublemaking” thought provocation coming from me, so just have at it, no hard feelings, can’t even tell who half of you are.

I’m hoping for a good match and great time as all the other ones have been.

As am I.

 

[kzin]

I don't believe for a second that harris type bipods are meant to be or will be banned.(or pushed to f-open)

Either they will interpret the new rule clause as contextually applying only to bipods where the feet move back or they will change the wording or they will put in a specific exception.

It's not unreasonable to assume that a test added explicitly for banning tracking does not apply to bipods where the feet don't move at all. Context does matter. We can't just extract a phrase from a particular clause and apply it universally.

Even better, they could explicitly fix the possible confusion now that it has been pointed out.

 

[Medic505]

This thread should have been locked after the first post. If you don't like the rules, stay home.

 

[sdean]

Knee jerk reaction? Good Lord I feel like I'm engaged in a political or religious discussion.....

Please correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that this issue was presented to the high power committee for a change to the existing HP rules. The match directors bulletin is to get this rule into Nationals and ultimately into the NRA High Power Rules but Covid has delayed this. Am i correct or am i wrong that this only applies to Nationals?

If it only applies to Nationals and will never end up in the HP Rules as it's written I could care less.

BUT....If it gets into HP Rules then it will affect every local match at every level and thus affect participation.

Just like golf as you mention. Everyone....yes even the pros play by the same rules of golf. The USGA rules of golf apply at every single level of golf from the weekend hacker to the pro at the Masters. The USGA rules of golf are the equivalent to the NRA High Power Rules. Now the PGA has additional guidelines but the rules are still the same.

The NRA High Power rules doesn't differentiate equipment rules between event types. Just specifies courses of fire, string fire and how it should be run. Not a word on equipment.

So again, as written for the Nationals and if adopted by the NRA for the HP rules it will make a Harris style bipod on a mat illegal because it won't move easily side to side.

What is your definition of "pure F-T/R". You threw that term out there. I'm guessing yours and mine differ. To me pure would mean a Palma Rifle with bipod. You show me how any rifle used today at Nationals fits that mold. Have a palma guy sling one up and give it a shot. I'd even say a tactical style rifle is more pure than anything shot today.

It appears to me that people are taking this way to personal. I'm just trying to keep local participation legal by the rules. Clearly some don't care. To me it's so freaking simple and obvious. Simply specify that this rule only applies to ski/skate type feet and it's done. Harris bipods are thus exempt from the side to side movement requirement. But no, dig in your heels and refuse to acknowledge that as written it has greater implications than the Nationals.

If a piece of carpet affects your attendance then you have bigger problems. Please quit worrying about things that haven’t even happened yet. Like Trump losing the election. There now it’s political maybe they will delete this foolishness.

 

[Downhill]

Don't quite understand. We all know people who will test the limitations of a rule. See it all the time. If you Don't agree, petition the rule committee, stay home and wait for a response. Or follow the new guidelines and go shoot. It looks to me that for this issue to arise, many complaints have been made about the issue in question. Personally I'll comply and keep competing.

 

[D-4297]

Mind tricks don’t work on me D, only logic.

Now you've gone and made me have to ask . Did you lose your sense of humor somewhere along the way , through this discussion ?

 

[davidjoe]

No, I hadn’t. I was fine until the “corrosive crap” comment. That one of Warren’s, have to admit, it gave me pause, even with the imogee; I’m not trying to unravel things or put anyone on the spot. If my thoughts on rules put in words do more negative than positive, that’s not intended and I thought it better to contain them.

Y’all do know I hope, that I’m genuinely fond of the Thompkins Gallagher fam, especially MG, the nicest one . Nothing above was meant by me to be a wedge. Now, that said, this thread took a bit a tribute bend early on with Mid’s balls and global stature versus the heathens references, and Warren is certainly a capable, defending wing man 300 posts later and to the end, but as an example, this alone - Nancy called me during dinner one year because my ridiculously $$$ Kowa spotting scope had been turned in with my stool, while I was closing out pits after my team left the line - well that makes a friend for life as far as I’m concerned (and whoever turned it in because I hadn’t given it another thought yet and would have gone nuts the next day).

 

[Warren Dean]

If a piece of carpet affects your attendance then you have bigger problems. Please quit worrying about things that haven’t even happened yet. Like Trump losing the election. There now it’s political maybe they will delete this foolishness.

 

[Warren Dean]

No, I hadn’t. I was fine until the “corrosive crap” comment. That one of Warren’s, have to admit, i

Just to clarify, davidjoe, the comment was not aimed directly at you...it was referring to ALL of the nasty comments made throughout the entire thread. That kind of stuff does no one any good.

Your comments seem to be reasonable and I appreciate spirited debate as much as the next guy. If someone impugns a friend of mine though, I get defensive. Again, not directed at you.

To wit, pre-imperial Rome's greatest general to that point and first dictator of Rome, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, had this epitaph carved on the plaque in his mausoleum: " No greater friend, no worse enemy".

That pretty much sums up the way I live.

Peace, out.