2020 NRA F-Class National Championship MATCH DIRECTOR’S BULLETIN #1

[Crow]

Ah! So a combo thing... just say carpet isn't allowed with ski-type feet. That could work.

 

[coldboreshot]

Seriously? Did you not see the 3 emoji's?

Does this make us friends again?

 

[avidflyer]

i've been shooting F class for a long time, and like others have posted it seems every year we ALL PUSH the rules in T/R. until a clear ruling comes out on what you can and can't put your bi-pod on it's almost like drag racing, you run what you brung. The caveat is a little common sense I think the picture of the mat should've been flipped over before the carpet was mounted it seems someone could definitely track using that under a bipod. but then again if we try to self police ourselves it'll turn into another nightmare. Until the rules are changed on something we all agree on (unlikely) we go back to common sense. The second way to look at it as long as the rules are posted well in advance of the match, you know what to expect like everything else in life we may not agree with it but if everybody is on the same pretense it is what it is. when this debate started it was more directed towards that front mat set up and if I was at a match I don't think I'd bitch about it, but it's definitely not in the context of the rules. The mat with groves mounted up definitely could provide a surface to track on. I don't see how shag carpet on a FLAT surface/board although it gives a little resistance allows you to track I've shot eights and plenty of nines using a shag carpet on a board. I think there is a difference between resistance and tracking in a groove. I even hate to use the word resistance with shag carpet but I'm sure it has some resistance left to right. When Dan introduced his feet they came into question and soon after everyone seemed to adopt/accept them. This one (the pictured mat) may be going a little to far.

 

[J F Johannes]

i've been shooting F class for a long time, and like others have posted it seems every year we ALL PUSH the rules in T/R. until a clear ruling comes out on what you can and can't put your bi-pod on it's almost like drag racing, you run what you brung. The caveat is a little common sense I think the picture of the mat should've been flipped over before the carpet was mounted it seems someone could definitely track using that under a bipod. but then again if we try to self police ourselves it'll turn into another nightmare. Until the rules are changed on something we all agree on (unlikely) we go back to common sense. The second way to look at it as long as the rules are posted well in advance of the match, you know what to expect like everything else in life we may not agree with it but if everybody is on the same pretense it is what it is. when this debate started it was more directed towards that front mat set up and if I was at a match I don't think I'd bitch about it, but it's definitely not in the context of the rules. The mat with groves mounted up definitely could provide a surface to track on. I don't see how shag carpet on a FLAT surface/board although it gives a little resistance allows you to track I've shot eights and plenty of nines using a shag carpet on a board. I think there is a difference between resistance and tracking in a groove. I even hate to use the word resistance with shag carpet but I'm sure it has some resistance left to right. When Dan introduced his feet they came into question and soon after everyone seemed to adopt/accept them. This one (the pictured mat) may be going a little to far.

Where is this picture? Can you post it for all to see?

Jim

 

[avidflyer]

Where is this picture? Can you post it for all to see?

Jim

 

[J F Johannes]

Thanks

 

[kzin]

Is that the bipod foot completely submerged in the carpet shag???

 

[avidflyer]

View attachment 1192947 Is that the bipod foot completely submerged in the carpet shag???

I don't have a clue but it kind of looks like it it would be hard to believe that you didn't know what you were doing with that set up. (when u made it)

 

[Ron Gorski]

Yeah, well that's the keyboard talking.

Why doesn't Savage have an F open Team?

 

[J F Johannes]

I believe we cannot come to any kind of consensus, or standard if you will, until we address these parts of the rules:

(a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) - The F-Open rifle may be supported by a front rest bag, which may be fully adjustable for position but may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to itts prior point of aim from the previous shot.

(b) F-Class Target Rifle (F-TR) Rests - A bipod and/or sling are the only allowed front supports for the F-TR rifle. The rifle may be supported by a bipod and/or sling and a rear support which provide no positive mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot.
(emphasis added)

When I fire I am lucky to return to my own target frame, no matter what kind of carpet I use, but I assure you that F-Open shooters can and do return to their POA.

The words "may" and "shall" have two completely different legal meanings when we are discussing them in a court room.

Jim

 

[Ron Gorski]

If you are an F-TR competitor and want to use carpet, because the rules specifically call it out, while denying an obvious use for it with bipod skate-blade feet, i.e. groove tracking, and you want to convince others that you absolutely are not using it for that purpose (and you want to convince yourself, too); just turn it over and use it "pile down". Unless the carpet is rubber backed, you should easily be able to achieve the rule's intent/limitation. Personally, I would look for another surface.

Dan

That is why the thickness of the pile should be addressed. Pile depth can be measured. Tracking is too subjective.

 

[Medic505]

IMO tuners and RAD are rule violations.

And how did you come up with this deduction?

 

[BP1]

That is why the thickness of the pile should be addressed. Pile depth can be measured. Tracking is too subjective.

At the end of the day it won’t matter if it’s a 1/8” thick or 2”s thick it will always make a so called groove in it and any groove I’ve ever put in something you couldn’t take your hand and rub it out...so let’s just go ahead and abide by the international rules so we can make everyone happy.

 

[Ron Gorski]

At the end of the day it won’t matter if it’s a 1/8” thick or 2”s thick it will always make a so called groove in it and any groove I’ve ever put in something you couldn’t take your hand and rub it out...so let’s just go ahead and abide by the international rules so we can make everyone happy.

What are the international rules?

 

[kzin]

What are the international rules?

https://2021fcwc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FC_Rules_2018_final.pdf

pretty much the same written rule, maybe they have a more clear 'interetation' somewhere?

F2.9.The use of ‘tables’ i.e. a single flat solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited. Carpet or similarly flexible matting may be placed under the front rest and rear bag. Separate flat boards and or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on any given side may also be placed under the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod the board or plate may be as wide as necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point, but not be more than 12" front to rear. It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet nor allow the feet to create them. No levelling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top and bottom: a hole to facilitate carrying the plate is permissible but it may not be used, whether alone or conjunction with anything else, so as to prevent movement of the plate in the firing point.

 

[Nowhere Man]

They looked grooved to me.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

i've been shooting F class for a long time, and like others have posted it seems every year we ALL PUSH the rules in T/R. until a clear ruling comes out on what you can and can't put your bi-pod on it's almost like drag racing, you run what you brung. The caveat is a little common sense I think the picture of the mat should've been flipped over before the carpet was mounted it seems someone could definitely track using that under a bipod. but then again if we try to self police ourselves it'll turn into another nightmare. Until the rules are changed on something we all agree on (unlikely) we go back to common sense. The second way to look at it as long as the rules are posted well in advance of the match, you know what to expect like everything else in life we may not agree with it but if everybody is on the same pretense it is what it is. when this debate started it was more directed towards that front mat set up and if I was at a match I don't think I'd bitch about it, but it's definitely not in the context of the rules. The mat with groves mounted up definitely could provide a surface to track on. I don't see how shag carpet on a FLAT surface/board although it gives a little resistance allows you to track I've shot eights and plenty of nines using a shag carpet on a board. I think there is a difference between resistance and tracking in a groove. I even hate to use the word resistance with shag carpet but I'm sure it has some resistance left to right. When Dan introduced his feet they came into question and soon after everyone seemed to adopt/accept them. This one (the pictured mat) may be going a little to far.

I once was an F-TR competitor, and in my mind the binding F-TR rules for the 2020 FCNC were posted a long time ago. They have just gradually strayed and eroded over the years and match to match. It's a sorryful affair that the rules and bipod manufactures seem to have lured F-TR competitors into what we might call the "carpet trap". Yet, there is certainly nothing wrong with being innovative and pushing the rule to its legal limit.

The directive seems to be telling F-TR competitors that if you want to rig your F-TR set up to perform like the F-O competitors' rules allow, then that's where you will compete in the 2020 FCNC...that's certainly a softer landing and a less prickly briar patch than being outright DQed. So, worst case for you is you come shoot with me in F-O. Be gentle.

Sorry,

Dan

 

[MattPeetz]

This is about as funny as when you suggest and say F Class needs to go to pair firing like the rest of the world. People’s butts get hurt major time just like in this thread.
It’s been entertaining.

 

[Ringostar]

At the end of the day it won’t matter if it’s a 1/8” thick or 2”s thick it will always make a so called groove in it and any groove I’ve ever put in something you couldn’t take your hand and rub it out...so let’s just go ahead and abide by the international rules so we can make everyone happy.

This last line can bring up questions. To me, it’s just like saying that the U.S. should just accept and follow the beliefs of the UN and Europe. I used to race stock car, and the rules were vague on a lot of issues. I was told many times. It all depends on how you interpret the rules. If it doesn’t specifically call something out as illegal, than it’s good to go. I shoot open not TR, so don’t have a dog in this fight. But the pictured mat doesn’t provide any advantage in my eyes when I see the grooves in the cow mat. They’re on the bottom, so have no effect on tracking. The rules also say carpet is legal. So who is to determine which carpet isn’t legal?

 

[Ned Ludd]

This whole thing is idiotic, as is the new rule. Congratulations, a significant portion of the F-TR setups currently being used in this country are now illegal. Good job, Rules Committee. Too bad no one had the balls to do this 6 or 7 years ago before such setups became used by the majority of F-TR shooters. All of this was caused by a bunch of whiners that got their asses handed to them by a better shooter.