Another look at finding the lands.

[jamesdmock]

First, let me say that this thread is in no way to disparage Eric Cortina's method of tuning. He is too good of a shooter and his way works for him. However, when one becomes too dogmatic in their approach to a problem, they may encourage some resistance.

As an example, I will use short range shooter, Tony Boyer's method. I have interviewed Tony twice and this is his method of tuning. He told me that he does NOT jump bullets because he has found that those loads are inconsistent. He said that the jumped bullets may shoot small but the aggs suffer. Tony starts at "touch" with a given bullet and moves into the lands .003 at a time using three charges with each seating depth (mild, medium, and hot loads). When he finds a seating depth that not only shoots small but shoots to the same relative position on target with all three charges, he has found the ideal seating depth for that bullet and neck tension. Tony uses a lot of neck tension with N133 powder.

Eric is a great long range shooter and his method works for him, and Tony is the GREATEST short range shooter and his method certainly works for him. Good shooting......James PS-Tony added that he seldom chases the lands due to wear.

 

[jelenko]

when one becomes too dogmatic in their approach to a problem, they may encourage some resistance.

Yes! "It's not what you say it's how you say it".

 

[Richard Coody]

Well it also has a lot to do with the equipment you are using. A custom action and a premium hand lapped barrel is going to be much easier to find tough than a factory savage with a really rough throat.

 

[Webster]

First, let me say that this thread is in no way to disparage Eric Cortina's method of tuning. He is too good of a shooter and his way works for him. However, when one becomes too dogmatic in their approach to a problem, they may encourage some resistance.

As an example, I will use short range shooter, Tony Boyer's method. I have interviewed Tony twice and this is his method of tuning. He told me that he does NOT jump bullets because he has found that those loads are inconsistent. He said that the jumped bullets may shoot small but the aggs suffer. Tony starts at "touch" with a given bullet and moves into the lands .003 at a time using three charges with each seating depth (mild, medium, and hot loads). When he finds a seating depth that not only shoots small but shoots to the same relative position on target with all three charges, he has found the ideal seating depth for that bullet and neck tension. Tony uses a lot of neck tension with N133 powder.

Eric is a great long range shooter and his method works for him, and Tony is the GREATEST short range shooter and his method certainly works for him. Good shooting......James PS-Tony added that he seldom chases the lands due to wear.

Tony seldom shoots a barrel more than 600-800 rounds.

 

[D-4297]

Interesting read....But comparing to different disciplines , two different loading processes , and the opposition of short range BR to long range F class is like trying to compare a "65" Dart Slant Six , to a "69" Hemi Cuda . DOES NOT COMPUTE ! Both loading process have their relevance , and have been developed by these Masters , with relation to maximum performance for each individual discipline . For a specific purpose of that discipline . Don't think to many L/R F class shooters would attempt to follow Mr. Boyers practices , anymore than many short-range BR shooters to want to emulate Mr. Cortina's in BR . The "Discipline" is a major factor in the loading process , from the very beginning and is also a controlling factor , in what process is followed .

 

[dolek]

First, let me say that this thread is in no way to disparage Eric Cortina's method of tuning. He is too good of a shooter and his way works for him. However, when one becomes too dogmatic in their approach to a problem, they may encourage some resistance.

As an example, I will use short range shooter, Tony Boyer's method. I have interviewed Tony twice and this is his method of tuning. He told me that he does NOT jump bullets because he has found that those loads are inconsistent. He said that the jumped bullets may shoot small but the aggs suffer. Tony starts at "touch" with a given bullet and moves into the lands .003 at a time using three charges with each seating depth (mild, medium, and hot loads). When he finds a seating depth that not only shoots small but shoots to the same relative position on target with all three charges, he has found the ideal seating depth for that bullet and neck tension. Tony uses a lot of neck tension with N133 powder.

Eric is a great long range shooter and his method works for him, and Tony is the GREATEST short range shooter and his method certainly works for him. Good shooting......James PS-Tony added that he seldom chases the lands due to wear.

Thanks for posting, I like Tony's approach . Straight forward, no rants,no BS ...He is a class act .

 

[dolek]

Yes! "It's not what you say it's how you say it".

That was excellent wording for sure , and how very true .

 

[jamesdmock]

Interesting read....But comparing to different disciplines , two different loading processes , and the opposition of short range BR to long range F class is like trying to compare a "65" Dart Slant Six , to a "69" Hemi Cuda . DOES NOT COMPUTE ! Both loading process have their relevance , and have been developed by these Masters , with relation to maximum performance for each individual discipline . For a specific purpose of that discipline . Don't think to many L/R F class shooters would attempt to follow Mr. Boyers practices , anymore than many short-range BR shooters to want to emulate Mr. Cortina's in BR . The "Discipline" is a major factor in the loading process , from the very beginning and is also a controlling factor , in what process is followed .

I wish Bart Sauter would reveal the differences in tuning for LR vs SR. He was a student of Tony early on and has risen to HOF status in SR Benchrest. Now, after about three years shooting 600 yd BR, he has become one of the ones to beat. I believe he has been IBS shooter of the year twice. I would bet that his method is closer to Tony's than it is to Eric's...I don't know but I would guess that. Good shooting....James

 

[HTSmith]

Interesting read....But comparing to different disciplines , two different loading processes , and the opposition of short range BR to long range F class is like trying to compare a "65" Dart Slant Six , to a "69" Hemi Cuda . DOES NOT COMPUTE ! Both loading process have their relevance , and have been developed by these Masters , with relation to maximum performance for each individual discipline . For a specific purpose of that discipline . Don't think to many L/R F class shooters would attempt to follow Mr. Boyers practices , anymore than many short-range BR shooters to want to emulate Mr. Cortina's in BR . The "Discipline" is a major factor in the loading process , from the very beginning and is also a controlling factor , in what process is followed .

Which one is the slant 6 and which is the hemi?

 

[Daddymac]

It doesn't matter how nice you are, or how correct you are, or how nicely you state a fact or opinion, when it comes to certain topics on here, some people are just going to get their panties in a wad, and this is one of those topics.

When it comes to any Internet forum, some people are just so insecure or absolute A-holes, that they have to prove their way is the best way, and to do that they usually have to discredit methods others use, by calling them stupid, and if you hang around that forum long enough, you will find it is usually the same people over and over.

My opinion is the proof is in the pudding, great shooter/reloaders should not have to rant about what they do, and if they do call you stupid, they are probably just A-holes.

 

[D-4297]

I wish Bart Sauter would reveal the differences in tuning for LR vs SR. He was a student of Tony early on and has risen to HOF status in SR Benchrest. Now, after about three years shooting 600 yd BR, he has become one of the ones to beat. I believe he has been IBS shooter of the year twice. I would bet that his method is closer to Tony's than it is to Eric's...I don't know but I would guess that. Good shooting....James

Sir ; I think you missed my point , completely . BR is not "F" class , whether it's SR or what is classified as Mid-Range to F class shooters . I don't know how BR shooters load for 600 , but I do know most F shooters do "Jump" their bullets , and load very precisely weighing to the tenth of a grain , or less . So comparing "Load Practices" is not a compatible debate for these different disciplines . That's the point I was trying to make , without aligning to either side of the discussion .

And @HTSmith ; If you can't tell the difference , you must "push" a Chevy .

 

[Shooter13]

Tony added that he seldom chases the lands due to wear.

That's because he changes barrels as often as we change socks!! ;-)

 

[D-4297]

I pulled my last barrel at 4,600 rounds when it went from a 198 to a 179 in twenty rounds . And the group looked like a shotgun pattern . If he's shootin .308 , I be happy to take his rejects ...

 

[HTSmith]

Sir ; I think you missed my point , completely . BR is not "F" class , whether it's SR or what is classified as Mid-Range to F class shooters . I don't know how BR shooters load for 600 , but I do know most F shooters do "Jump" their bullets , and load very precisely weighing to the tenth of a grain , or less . So comparing "Load Practices" is not a compatible debate for these different disciplines . That's the point I was trying to make , without aligning to either side of the discussion .

And @HTSmith ; If you can't tell the difference , you must "push" a Chevy .

Had the pleasure of driving a Valiant that got 30 mpq. I spelled it right that's 30 miles per quart of oil!

 

[BartsBullets]

I wish Bart Sauter would reveal the differences in tuning for LR vs SR. He was a student of Tony early on and has risen to HOF status in SR Benchrest. Now, after about three years shooting 600 yd BR, he has become one of the ones to beat. I believe he has been IBS shooter of the year twice. I would bet that his method is closer to Tony's than it is to Eric's...I don't know but I would guess that. Good shooting....James

James,

I tune for Long Range the same way I tune for short range. I’ve had a lot of arguments on this board about it. Ive been told it can’t be done. However, it’s worked extremely well from 100 to 1000 yards. It’s very seldom that I show up to a match without a competitive tune. It’s very similar to Tony’s method. Find the seating depth, and determine the load window. Then figure how well the barrel cuts the wind.

As far as tuning not being the same for different disciplines, I say not necessarily. I’ve shot short range, mid, long and FClass. It’s worked for all of those.

A statement that is probably closer to the truth, “Is long range tuning methods don’t work for short range.”

Bart


As far Eric’s method I don’t have a problem with it.

 

[Northridge]

the "key" in my opinion to this discussion of seating as well as other tuning discussions really is not how or what method to implement but rather don't allow yourself to seek a "line item" method of tuning based of any other competitors method or methods. use one method against other methods and over time you likely see and winning method realized that may very well be a version all it "own" and this is completely OK and up to you. It requires shooting, shooting and more shooting to develop and system that only you are accountable to. what I have discovered in conversations with Top shooters from all venues is this, they do not ask "permission" or "confirmation" from others if there method is correct or not they push on until they find the results they are looking for on every platform and barrel. implementing knowledge from every venue regarding tuning and shooting will support the other venues I promise. from the simplest discussion of how to read range flags to approaching the bench to loading and holding a winning tune don't be afraid to leave the reservation in pursuit of results they are there we just have to pull the "blinds" to the side...

Shawn Williams


chasing the tune is what makes it fun...

 

[gman47564]

^^^^^ i have to agree with this... no doubt both methods are solid and works for the shooters... but sometimes you gotta put in the work and find your own way... and that takes time and alot of rounds sent down range...

 

[rwj]

Had the pleasure of driving a Valiant that got 30 mpq. I spelled it right that's 30 miles per quart of oil!

Just like my ‘74 Vega!

 

[Longtrain]

Had the pleasure of driving a Valiant that got 30 mpq. I spelled it right that's 30 miles per quart of oil!

I had a Vega...fill with oil and check the gas. If you understand this statement we’re in an elite group of seniors.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I had a Vega...fill with oil and check the gas. If you understand this statement we’re in an elite group of seniors.

I had a gremlin that went thru trans fluid that fast