22rf "trainers' ...what do they really train?

[garandman]

My experience in off hand shooting was CMP / DCM and the M1 and AR15. Both VERY different than Olympic rifles.

She was using none of the accoutrements typical to CMP or Olympic type competition… the shooting coat or glove or sling etc. They all provide significant support for offhand shooting.

That said her form was excellent. She was doing exactly what she should for offhand shooting… placing her elbow on her hip that actually provides skeletal support all the way to the ground for the rifle weight.

 

[DR1586]

My experience in off hand shooting was CMP / DCM and the M1 and AR15. Both VERY different than Olympic rifles.

She was using none of the accoutrements typical to CMP or Olympic type competition… the shooting coat or glove or sling etc. They all provide significant support for offhand shooting.

That said her form was excellent. She was doing exactly what she should for offhand shooting… placing her elbow on her hip that actually provides skeletal support all the way to the ground for the rifle weight.

The sling provides no support for offhand as it is not allowed in Highpower, Smallbore, or Olympic shooting in that position.

 

[Tim Slater]

My experience in off hand shooting was CMP / DCM and the M1 and AR15. Both VERY different than Olympic rifles.

She was using none of the accoutrements typical to CMP or Olympic type competition… the shooting coat or glove or sling etc. They all provide significant support for offhand shooting.

That said her form was excellent. She was doing exactly what she should for offhand shooting… placing her elbow on her hip that actually provides skeletal support all the way to the ground for the rifle weight.

Exactly, the limitations of service rifle ergonomics are part of the challenge, just like the tiny 10-ring in Olympic shooting. Kirsten Weiss would use a shooting jacket, glove, trousers, and even boots as appropriate in competition (not the sling for standing, just in Prone and Kneeling). I expect she will carry out some training without the special clothing, but not all the time. The trousers especially are held to prevent back injury, as jackets don't cinch as tight as US NRA designs.

Still, the clothing is part of the context, along with rifle ergonomics, that allow heavier rifles to be shot with great precision.

 

[garandman]

In some off hand they will actually use a stand to help support the rifle which makes this Off hand egg shot without any supports using a 10 pound rifle all the more impressive

 

[DR1586]

In some off hand they will actually use a stand to help support the rifle which makes this Off hand egg shot without any supports using a 10 pound rifle all the more impressive



View attachment 1175909

That stand is used to rest the rifle between shots, keeping the muzzle down range. It also serves as an ammo stand to allow the shooter to remain vertical between shots. Bending over between shots can throw off your balance and cause excessive wobble area in standing. The stand is not used to shoot from in conventional/metric 3P or Olympic/ISSF smallbore.

 

[Hoser]

In some off hand they will actually use a stand to help support the rifle which makes this Off hand egg shot without any supports using a 10 pound rifle all the more impressive

That stand is not for shooting. It is for resting the gun on between shots.

 

[Tim Slater]

In some off hand they will actually use a stand to help support the rifle which makes this Off hand egg shot without any supports using a 10 pound rifle all the more impressive

The stand is only used for support while loading (single shot remember) or resting between shots, and for holding ammunition at a more convenient height than a table. It's not a rest for aiming and firing. I believe some of the Paralympic events allow a spring rest.

 

[garandman]

Im well aware of the use of the stand.

It's obviously not to be used while shooting because that would point the muzzle well south of the target.

The POINT being our egg shooter didnt even use one.

 

[Tim Slater]

The POINT being our egg shooter didnt even use one.

Why would she? The stand is there to reduce shooter fatigue over long match: sighters + 60 shots for 10m Air Rifle Match, and sighters + 40 shots for the standing leg of a 3-Position Smallbore match. Kristen Weiss wasn't shooting for nearly long, and wasn't wearing her shooting clothing that restricts movement.

 

[garandman]

My reading is just fine thank you. For someone who asks for politeness from others you seem awfully snippy.

Of course holding a rifle for 10 minutes is tiring. But as we have all agreed, the stand is used in specific circumstances: match shooting with heavy clothing and a single shot rifle. Out in the countryside she can just put that rifle down on the ground.

Just the video of the time she was actually shooting is more than sufficient to cause fatigue.

I know because I've been there and done that.

As I noted several times, her text book excellent form really helped. She obviously knows what she's doing.

 

[Tim Slater]

Just the video of the time she was actually shooting is more than sufficient to cause fatigue.

I know because I've been there and done that.

As I noted several times, her text book excellent form really helped. She obviously knows what she's doing.

I'm sure she does.

Not using a competition stand doesn't make Kirsten's trick shooting in the field less impressive, or detract from the achievements of Ginny Thrasher (the young lady shown with a stand) and other competition shooters who do.

It's also quite possible that Kristen simply didn't want another thing to carry out into the sticks.

 

[garandman]

Hmmm...so I just read through 11 pages of this thread to find out the OP was really asking a rhetorical question as he already had ALL the answers.....moving along

See my 20-pt summary of "takeaways" on pg. 5 (i.e. that means 'stuff I learned') How'd you miss that?

But When no one provides a better answer, you go with what ya had.

If you have other tips on how to use my 22rf to train for my CF game, post 'em up.

If not ...why re-hash?

 

[Dgd6mm]

Went back thru to dbl check what I can take away:


1. RF trainers help with sling shooting

2. Several have experience increased CF scores while training with 22rf. Yes, any shooting can help pretty much all forms of shooting. I’m more looking for the specific correlation of how to use my rf trainer to improve my cf scores, not just ppl telling me it worked for them. As the old saying goes.... I really don't understand a concept until I can explain it to others such that they "get" it.

3. RF trainers help with CF trigger control. Sure, any shooting helps with all shooting. But I can also do that better with my CF gun at home, without spending up to $4k on another gun, or travelling to the range, or spending any $$$ on ammo, all while watching my reticle to see if my scope moves without recoil interfering. (Full disclosure" I arelady own one Vudoo 2rf and am ordering the V-22S as soon as its avaialble. Simpy cuz hey are fun to shoot and I view them as an end unto themselves.)

4. RF is cheaper to shoot. Yes and dry fire practice is free, unlike Midas + which runs $17 a box.

5. Match stress is something to be worked on and mastered. Thru rf practice and cf practice and matches of all sorts.

6. Shooting rimfire is (more?) fun. Yes. Absolutely.

7. You need to believe in the benefits of rf training to actually experience them. (No, I don’t believe that. But others seem to. Sounds religious, to me. I'm good with my religion / lack of religion)

8. RF practice can help you read wind. That is true….to a point. As a general concept, yes, it will help. In the same way driving a Ford pickup will help you drive a Ferrari. But given bullet mass / speed / internal & external ballistics / BC , etc. reading wind for CF is gonna be very different than reading wind for RF. And totally different past 400 yards. My CF groups at 400 yds are same MoA as my 100 yd CF groups... even with significant wind. Try that with even a $10,000 rimfire , and report back.

9. Best comment of the thread - 22rf trainers are great (unbeatable, really) for training young / new shooters. Tahnks...I forgot / missed this.

10. Totally legit to get a 22rf trainer SIMPLY cuz you like it, and for no other reason.

11. 22rf magnifies shooter error, especially in shot follow thru due to much slower internal ballistics. Good point.

12. 22rf trains “focus.” I agree . Any shooting can be used to improve all my shooting. Does that justify $4,000 on a rf trainer? I already spent the $$$, so really just an academic question, now.

13. 22rf allows more shooting. Yes, its cheaper. By far. But training to drive a car isn’t necessarily helpful in trying to drive a tractor trailer. So this ENTIRE thread was aimed at asking the folks who say 22rf training helped their CF game to tell me ** HOW **…. Not just assure me it did.

14. Training "focus" (very necessary to do) can be done at home, for zero addt’l cost to my CF rifle, while dry firing, watching the reticle on target to see it of moves at all. I will work on that.

15. The existence of lots of 22rf trainers proves they work to help your CF game. (No, I don’t necessarily believe correlation proves causality, but some seem to.

16. 22rf training helps train out mental laziness in shooting set up, trigger squeeze and follow thru. Again, dry fire practice does a better job of that, for all the reasons already stated.

17. The USMC shooting team does several hours of dry fire practice per day.

18. There are essentially two groups of rifle shooters – slinger s and benchers. I really found that explanation helpful.

19. 22 rf lets you practice on shorter ranges. True, but I got a daily access to 400 yard range and what I really want to train is ballistics / wind reading / doping at 400+ yards, which 22rf isn’t really the best tool for that.

20. Why choose btwn 22rf and cf guns. Agreed. If you can afford both, get both. Both are fun and any shooting can improve all shooting – to a point.

I'm open and willing to learn. But to keep the peace, I'll simply wait for other additions to this list.

 

[garandman]

Thanx ! Anyone can feel totally free to address any of my 20, or add their own *specific* tips as to how to use a 22rf trainer to improve my CF game.

garandman said: ↑
Went back thru to double check what I can take away:


1. RF trainers help with sling shooting

2. Several have experience increased CF scores while training with 22rf. Yes, any shooting can help pretty much all forms of shooting. I’m more looking for the specific correlation of how to use my rf trainer to improve my cf scores, not just ppl telling me it worked for them. As the old saying goes.... I really don't understand a concept until I can explain it to others such that they "get" it.

3. RF trainers help with CF trigger control. Sure, any shooting helps with all shooting. But I can also do that better with my CF gun at home, without spending up to $4k on another gun, or travelling to the range, or spending any $$$ on ammo, all while watching my reticle to see if my scope moves without recoil interfering. (Full disclosure" I arelady own one Vudoo 2rf and am ordering the V-22S as soon as its avaialble. Simpy cuz hey are fun to shoot and I view them as an end unto themselves.)

4. RF is cheaper to shoot. Yes and dry fire practice is free, unlike Midas + which runs $17 a box.

5. Match stress is something to be worked on and mastered. Thru rf practice and cf practice and matches of all sorts.

6. Shooting rimfire is (more?) fun. Yes. Absolutely.

7. You need to believe in the benefits of rf training to actually experience them. (No, I don’t believe that. But others seem to. Sounds religious, to me. I'm good with my religion / lack of religion)

8. RF practice can help you read wind. That is true….to a point. As a general concept, yes, it will help. In the same way driving a Ford pickup will help you drive a Ferrari. But given bullet mass / speed / internal & external ballistics / BC , etc. reading wind for CF is gonna be very different than reading wind for RF. And totally different past 400 yards. My CF groups at 400 yds are same MoA as my 100 yd CF groups... even with significant wind. Try that with even a $10,000 rimfire , and report back.

9. Best comment of the thread - 22rf trainers are great (unbeatable, really) for training young / new shooters. Tahnks...I forgot / missed this.

10. Totally legit to get a 22rf trainer SIMPLY cuz you like it, and for no other reason.

11. 22rf magnifies shooter error, especially in shot follow thru due to much slower internal ballistics. Good point.

12. 22rf trains “focus.” I agree . Any shooting can be used to improve all my shooting. Does that justify $4,000 on a rf trainer? I already spent the $$$, so really just an academic question, now.

13. 22rf allows more shooting. Yes, its cheaper. By far. But training to drive a car isn’t necessarily helpful in trying to drive a tractor trailer. So this ENTIRE thread was aimed at asking the folks who say 22rf training helped their CF game to tell me ** HOW **…. Not just assure me it did.

14. Training "focus" (very necessary to do) can be done at home, for zero addt’l cost to my CF rifle, while dry firing, watching the reticle on target to see it of moves at all. I will work on that.

15. The existence of lots of 22rf trainers proves they work to help your CF game. (No, I don’t necessarily believe correlation proves causality, but some seem to.

16. 22rf training helps train out mental laziness in shooting set up, trigger squeeze and follow thru. Again, dry fire practice does a better job of that, for all the reasons already stated.

17. The USMC shooting team does several hours of dry fire practice per day.

18. There are essentially two groups of rifle shooters – slinger s and benchers. I really found that explanation helpful.

19. 22 rf lets you practice on shorter ranges. True, but I got a daily access to 400 yard range and what I really want to train is ballistics / wind reading / doping at 400+ yards, which 22rf isn’t really the best tool for that.

20. Why choose btwn 22rf and cf guns. Agreed. If you can afford both, get both. Both are fun and any shooting can improve all shooting – to a point.

I'm open and willing to learn. But to keep the peace, I'll simply wait for other additions to this list.