22rf "trainers' ...what do they really train?

[JimT]

Disagree. Dry fire practice allows you to watch your reticle on the bull's eye to watch for movement. When you introduce live ammo you get recoil and movement. Further when you introduce live ammo you introduce a dozen other variables that make the hole in the target of questionable value for telling you how your follow through was.

The simple truth is when you're off the bull's eye it does not guarantee that your follow through was incorrect. Many other factors about ballistics and trajectory and wind and load and other factors could cause to you to be off a bull's eye.

Thanks for making my point. Shooting rimfire at 50-100 yards removes almost all of the variables you may have at longer ranges with a heavier recoiling rifle so that proper follow through is easily verified by comparing your called shot with the actual result.

 

[garandman]

Thanks for making my point. Shooting rimfire at 50-100 yards removes almost all of the variables you may have at longer ranges with a heavier recoiling rifle so that proper follow through is easily verified by comparing your called shot with the actual result.

I can tell you've never competed rim fire bench rest with that post.

RImfire at even 50 yards is one of the hardest games in the world - due to variations in load, wind, hold, etc. Removes almost all variables? Not hardly.

 

[garandman]

That's called "follow through"..

Yes. And the best way to check follow thru is dry fire practice.

 

[garandman]

more like a valium..

No one is requiring your participation. That's a choice.

But insults ARE helpful. They tell me alot.

 

[Hoser]

I'm 7 pages into a very simple and legitimate question that people are harassing me over but I would really like to know the answer to

Can you help provide an answer?

Go back a few pages. I already have.

Actually, lots of people have, but you dont like their answers because they dont fit your agenda.

 

[JimT]

I can tell you've never competed rim fire bench rest with that post.

RImfire at even 50 yards is one of the hardest games in the world - due to variations in load, wind, hold, etc. Removes almst all vatiables? Not ahrdly.

No I haven’t. Tell you what, I’ll signup for a rimfire benchrest match ( even though I know it’s really for old, fat guys) if you sign up for a rimfire silhouette match and we will compare match results.

 

[garandman]

Go back a few pages. I already have.

Actually, lots of people have, but you dont like their answers because they dont fit your agenda.

Go back to my # 91.

I already summarized the main takeaways. SOME ppl did answer the question, and I thanked them. I have no agrenda... other than asking a question and getting an answer.

Most of this thread is just ppl saying "Of course 22 trainers help the CF game" while NOT explaining how, then scolding me for asking the question.

 

[garandman]

No I haven’t. Tell you what, I’ll signup for a rimfire benchrest match ( even though I know it’s really for old, fat guys) if you sign up for a rimfire silhouette match and we will compare match results.

I'll pass on your bigger johnson test.

THE POINT being ....rimfire at 50 yards is LESS helpful than dry fire for checking follow thru.

Its the whole reason ya DO dryfire.

 

[garandman]

Well... I've gotten a few answers. I'll check back from time to time to see if others are posted.

Toodles.

 

[justinp61]

You're asking me to prove a negative? Seriously?

You may want Consult the rules of logic. Proving a negative is impossible.

Its not my job to prove it doesn't help. It's your job to prove it does.

This is my thread. Go start your own if you want and ask people to attempt a logical impossibility. I will pass on that ? .

Besides... its not really sound logic to spend $4000 on something that might help.

Why be a a$$? My question to you was as relative as yours.

Sure you'll pass because you can't prove it, at least not easily, just like proponents of 22 use as trainers can't easily prove it.

Who set the price at $4000?

I don't honestly think you were looking for a definitive answer when you asked the question. I do think you got exactly what you were looking for.

As far as the rules of logic go, after reading all of this I, and I'd be willing to bet most others have come to the logical conclusion that you're a troll looking to stir up crap.

 

[JimT]

I'll pass on your bigger johnson test.

THE POINT being ....rimfire at 50 yards is LESS helpful than dry fire for checking follow thru.

Its the whole reason ya DO dryfire.

Nothing to do with that. Just a reference point for you when judging the difficulty of two shooting disciplines.

I suggest you get your hands on “Position Rifle Shooting” by Pullman and Hanenkrat , their definition of follow through might clue you in to why your definition is so off base.

They also discuss the reason and benefits of dry firing. Guess what, they don’t mention any benefit of judging follow through.

Garamdman, your posting history gives a strong indication you are a neophyte, “reinvent the wheel” type with limited demonstrable results. There is a reason no one agrees with you most of the time, but go ahead and reinvent the wheel. Maybe someday you can write a book about it, just don’t forget to list all of your shooting accomplishments in the forward.

 

[300_whisper]

Ok I’m being sincere here...how does building a DOPE chart, dialing your .22, checking wind, checking elevation, moving positions, trigger control, breathing, cheaper rounds, more shots on target, clearing malfunctions, swapping mags not count as training? The point was made a 10/22 is not similar to a bolt gun, but I can buy a savage 93 tactical with a similar styled stock to my rifle for $400 and then 1000s of rounds of .22 for tons of cost effective practice. Since, and I agree, that a $4000 vudo kind of removes the cost effective argument, never the less it’s still an awesome rifle.

I know wind calls and elevation calls will be way different as far as dialing but if you can make hits with a .22 at 300 / 400 yards then how does that not correlate to shooting 6mm, 6.5mm, and .30s are 1000-1200 yards? You’re doing all the same muscle movements and thought processes even if it’s not a 1:1 ratio between a blunt nose .22 and a higher performing higher bc bullet.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

An example of what I'm looking for:

"I (you speaking) use my 22rf trainer to practice my CF game as I have the exact same chassis in both guns with the same trgger set to the same weight in both guns, so firing my 22rf trainer helps my CF game in trigger squeeze and follow thru."

(I already responsded to this saying I beleive dry fire with my CF rig is a better way to practice trigger squeeze and follow thru, for the half dozen reasons I've already given. Repeatedly. )


But that is the type of explanation I'm looking for.


Since internal / external ballistics, and velocity and trajectory and BC and potential range and effects of wind and most everything that matters differs masively between CF and RF, I'm looking for anyone to explain.....

... how you use a 22rf trainer to train for the centerfire game.

The more specific the better..

I understand the importance of dry-fire for iron sights and especially pistol BE shooting. But with the minimum range you are shooting at I believe not less then 400yds. dry fire will help some, but how can being in your basement make up for shooting on the range and dealing with mirage? I am not saying it didn't help in your case, but can dry- fire be replaced even with a .22lr at a shorter distance? with live-fire
even at 50yds. mirage has its effect trying to hit a pen dot 25 times ad wind and it makes for a lot of fun.

IMO even live fire with a .22lr will still make a shooter perform the same deliberate mental and physical practices they use for CF shooting no matter the discipline.

I shoot with a bunch of CFBR guys and I never heard them mention dry fire practice and one of them is a current World Champion and I mean beat other countries shooters. he never shoots in a honey condition and deliberately waits for the latter part of the day for the worst conditions.
I need to ask these guys if they do dry fire for optics shooting.


Lee

 

[garandman]

Ok I’m being sincere here...how does building a DOPE chart, dialing your .22, checking wind, checking elevation, moving positions, trigger control, breathing, cheaper rounds, more shots on target, clearing malfunctions, swapping mags not count as training? The point was made a 10/22 is not similar to a bolt gun, but I can buy a savage 93 tactical with a similar styled stock to my rifle for $400 and then 1000s of rounds of .22 for tons of cost effective practice. Since, and I agree, that a $4000 vudo kind of removes the cost effective argument, but it’s still an awesome rifle.

Fair question. Thank you.

1. Wind for my 22rf bench gun is a killer at 50 yards. Very little effect for my CF guns at 400 yards. I' ve tested this repeatedly. Maybe I got lucky all those times, but given the much slower speed, external ballistics and trajectory, and the lower BC, my experience is that reading wind is VERY different for RF and CF. Same general idea, and yet quite different. Reading 300 yards (max for RF) of wind is alot differnt than 1,000 yards of wind (or so they tell me.)

2. I persoanlly don't need to practice swapping mags, or clearing malfunctions. Its just not part of my competition game. Sounds like a PRS skillset, so that would be a skillset they need.

3. Breathing control and trigger control I can practice at home, doing dry fire. I don't need a whole separate gun / scope at $1 - 4,000.

4. Dialing for my CF guns and RF guns is the same but different. A dial is a dial is a dial. I use Strelok Pro and I dial the # of clicks it tells me, and I pull he trigger. But a click is a click.

5. More 22RF rounds fired gives me more 22 training , which is cool bcuz I see 22 rf as an end unto itself. But the recoil impulse is so very different and the velocity, BC. trajectory, internal / external ballistics are SOO different. And again.... I *** NEVER*** shoot my CF guns at less than 400 yards. So I'm not seeing what 22RF "trains" me for at 400+ seeing its limited to 300+ maybe a little.

And I agree. EVERY rifle is awesome.

I just don't see my 22rf trainer helping my CF game much, at least not beyond the notion that "all shooting helps improve any shooting."

 

[BP1]

I don't understand the point of this thread, as you ask what we/other shooter use a .22lr to train for CF shooting. how is it what we do, will apply to how you train? you have adamantly said it makes no sense in trying to use a .22lr. as it doesn't correlate to YOUR CF shooting.
so for others to try and explain how they/we apply a .22lr for training as it correlates to our/their CF shooting will never make sense to you.
because the bottom line it won't or doesn't work for you. so why ask the question? for you the answer is clear.

Lee

Who’s on first?..

 

[garandman]

I understand the importance of dry-fire for iron sights and especially pistol BE shooting. But with the minimum range you are shooting at I believe not less then 400yds. dry fire will help some, but how can being in your basement make up for shooting on the range and dealing with mirage? I am not saying it didn't help in your case, but can dry- fire be replaced even with a .22lr at a shorter distance? with live-fire
even at 50yds. mirage has its effect trying to hit a pen dot 25 times ad wind and it makes for a lot of fun.

IMO even live fire with a .22lr will still make a shooter perform the same deliberate mental and physical practices they use for CF shooting no matter the discipline.

I shoot with a bunch of CFBR guys and I never heard them mention dry fire practice and one of them is a current World Champion and I mean beat other countries shooters. he never shoots in a honey condition and deliberately waits for the latter part of the day for the worst conditions.
I need to ask these guys if they do dry fire for optics shooting.


Lee

Let's go with your premise - dry fire is of some but limited usefulness. (I was only using it illustratively, anyway...to explain what I'm looking to learn)

What *else* does a 22rf trainer do to help my long-range CF game?

IS it having the same chassis in both guns?

Is it having the same trigger at the same pull weight in both guns?

What disciplines / competitions are ppl shooting where shooting a 22rf trainer helps them in their CF game? At what distances?

How do ppl translate the lessons learned at under 300 for over 400 yards?

Do ppl have the same scope on both guns?

Are they using ballistic calcualtors (e.g. Strelok Pro, etc)

Why do the very differnt velocity, BC, internal / external balistics, trajectory, wind effects, etc for the two NOT make them in-comparable?

I hope this helps define what I'm wanting to know better.

 

[USMCDOC]

Who’s on first?..

What

 

[garandman]

What

The correct answer was "third base." (with apologies to Abbott and Costello)

 

[USMCDOC]

The correct answer was "third base." (with apologies to Abbott and Costello)

that is what you get for assuming. mmmmm kayyy

 

[BP1]

that is what you get for assuming. mmmmm kayyy

I don’t know