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22rf "trainers' ...what do they really train?

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garandman said:
I know that will be hard.

But won't that be bcuz the 22rf ballistics won't support that kind of accuracy at 300 yards, where centerfire would?

Hitting a golfball at 300 yd would be comparatively easy for me with my CF guns.

BTW....wind and ballistics beyond 300 yards are YUUUGGGEEE.
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it isn't a golf ball, she doesn't hit it.. but man o live, She comes close..
 
For some disciplines, like PRS, wouldn’t using a .22 with limited range space still help with positional shooting and going through the motions? For example, mag changes, forced double feed scenarios, shooting from weird objects, angles, positions, etc? So three benefits I see are based the following with some assumptions:

1. cost (I have a 10/22 target so I’m not dropping 4K into a rifle therefore the overall cost savings is real)

2. Positional shooting (shooting off a culvert or through a window is the same if your rifles are set up similarly)

3. limited range space. (I would much rather be going through the motions of cranking my turrets and looking at dope on my .22 at 300 yards as opposed to just having a lazy known hold of 1 mil high with my 6CM. I see it as having a realistic match environment and making the best of a shorter range.)

What do you guys think? Valid or am I blowing smoke? I’m sure these points were covered already, but I was too dumb to comprehend them.
 
USMCDOC said:
it isn't a golf ball, she doesn't hit it.. but man o live, She comes close..
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man she’s smoking hot. There seems to be a lot more unicorns out there than I thought.

Also, what she’s doing definitely helps with training. At a minimum it’s practicing good shooting fundamentals to get that close off hand.
 
orkan said:
Why choose? I shoot 20k+ rounds of precision rimfire and 10k+ rounds of precision centerfire every year. Some years a lot more.

I don't drive to a range... I just walk outside. Live fire is always more valuable than dry fire.

$4k, $8k, $12k on a rifle... who cares. I have multiples of them. No one is forcing anyone to buy rifles. So why so much hand wringing about cost? There are options at literally every price point. You think the guys that run bergara centerfires have to go spend $4k to mimic their centerfire? You can get a B14R for under a thousand bucks, last I checked. For another thousand, you can stick it in whatever stock/chassis your centerfire is in. If the goal is alleviating ones self of pressure to attain more money to buy products, any argument, right or wrong, will suffice as justification.

This entire thread is started with the premise of you arguing a negative. So while you go on and on about there being no water in the glass... the rest of us are drinking our full. Your statements regarding precision 22lr and what can/can not be learned from it might be accepted by those with little or no experience. Those of us with 20 years or more of time with precision 22lr simply aren't going to be swayed by false gospel which directly contradicts our own hard earned experience. We don't just think time spent with 22lr is valuable. We know it is. After the reasons being shared with you, no matter their legitimacy, you maintain your position... trying to argue a negative and mistakenly thinking the burden of proof falls on us. Such a pointless thread, and one I'll not participate in further. It's as if someone called you up yesterday and tried to force you to buy a 22lr or something. lol

https://www.zmescience.com/science/the-dunning-kruger-effect-feature/

If a man searches for scarceness, he will find it. If a man searches for abundance, he will find it.

I'd also like to point out, there is no way for any of us to refute what you're saying, without you trying to take offense. The mere suggestion that you simply don't know what you don't know, causes offense, and this is evidenced by your refusal to accept it when presented with it. Such is the nature of strongly held beliefs that are consequently, wrong. Further increasing the pointlessness of this thread.
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Interesting read, thanks.
 
garandman said:
Dellet - to clarify....

I shoot off a front bipod, usually. Occasionally a front rest. A rear bag, only, ever. Basically a PRS / F-class hybrid.

And as I've seen the terms used:

Internal ballistics: inside the barrel
External; ballistics: outside the barrel.

https://www.bevfitchett.us/ballistics/internal-external-and-terminal-ballistics.html

Its not about indoors vs. outdoors shooting

I don't ever shoot rifle indoors, and I've never shot rifle at any less than 50 yards.

And I said dry fire is BETTER THAN live fire. I've explained why repeatedly.

You said... "There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day." If you beleive that, really beleive that, then you don't want 22rf practice to prep for centerfire matches. Train EXCTLY how you will compete on game day.

Yes, I'm trying to make the shooter NOT the weakest link. As UI said above...only perfect practice makes perfect, and you practice till you can't get it wrong.

Thanx.
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You seem to be a big proponent of dry firing, and rightly so. However, I will take live fire practice every time since you have absolute confirmation of where your reticle really is when the bullet leaves the barrel.

Try this experiment. At 50 yards (with one of your fancy .22’s) take 10 dry fire offhand shots at a target and have someone number and plot your “called” shots on a similar target. Next, take 10 live fire shots offhand and have someone number and plot your “called” shots while also plotting and numbering the actual shots. Compare any differences in group size between the called 10 dry fire shots versus the 10 live fire shots. Also, compare the differences between your “called” live fire shots and the actual shot on the target. Report your results back to us.

BTW, it’s been scientifically proven that your shooting abilities are immeasurably improved by watching Kirsten Weiss videos than dry firing off a bipod!!
 
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garandman said:
Dellet - to clarify....

I shoot off a front bipod, usually. Occasionally a front rest. A rear bag, only, ever. Basically a PRS / F-class hybrid.

And as I've seen the terms used:

Internal ballistics: inside the barrel
External; ballistics: outside the barrel.

https://www.bevfitchett.us/ballistics/internal-external-and-terminal-ballistics.html

Its not about indoors vs. outdoors shooting

I don't ever shoot rifle indoors, and I've never shot rifle at any less than 50 yards.

And I said dry fire is BETTER THAN live fire. I've explained why repeatedly.

You said... "There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day." If you beleive that, really beleive that, then you don't want 22rf practice to prep for centerfire matches. Train EXCTLY how you will compete on game day.

Yes, I'm trying to make the shooter NOT the weakest link. As UI said above...only perfect practice makes perfect, and you practice till you can't get it wrong.

Thanx.
Click to expand...

You said... "There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day." If you beleive that, really beleive that, then you don't want 22rf practice to prep for centerfire matches. Train EXCTLY how you will compete on game day.

Yes, I'm trying to make the shooter NOT the weakest link. As UI said above...only perfect practice makes perfect, and you practice till you can't get it wrong.
Click to expand...

Those above are fundamentally incorrect and conflicting idea's, partly because you quoted me out of context and partly because you use training and practice interchangeably, when in fact they are two different things.

Training, is the the practice of fundamental and basic skill sets and are best worked on one at a time, or similar in groups.

Practice, in the context you used, is the application of all required skills at the same time as used in the situation trained for.

If you want to train, as the title of the thread implies, it can be done quite effectively with a 22LR. and many other tools.

If you want to practice, then absolutely use what you will compete with.

The part you left out is that Perfect Practice, only comes with Proper Preparation.

A 22LR training rifle is a very good tool to use during that proper preparation. To be clear, it's not the only tool nor is it a required tool.
 
dellet said:
Those above are fundamentally incorrect and conflicting idea's, partly because you quoted me out of context and partly because you use training and practice interchangeably, when in fact they are two different things.

Training, is the the practice of fundamental and basic skill sets and are best worked on one at a time, or similar in groups.

Practice, in the context you used, is the application of all required skills at the same time as used in the situation trained for.

If you want to train, as the title of the thread implies, it can be done quite effectively with a 22LR. and many other tools.

If you want to practice, then absolutely use what you will compete with.

The part you left out is that Perfect Practice, only comes with Proper Preparation.

A 22LR training rifle is a very good tool to use during that proper preparation. To be clear, it's not the only tool nor is it a required tool.
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And you STILL YET have failed to do anythng more than make a claim a 22rf trainer is good for CF shooting skills.

I'm aware you beleive that. I don't care.

What I want to know is SPECIFICALLY HOW you train on a 22 rf in any way that corresponds to CF, since internal and external ballistics and trajectory and BC and potential range and wind effects and velocity and pretty much everything that matters differs.

Do you train for baseball using a basketball? I'm guessing "yes."
 
And training and practice are essentially the same thing, in the contecxt I used it, since the goal of both is my CENTERFIRE GAME.

******* I ******** get to define my context. Not you.
 
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