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PPC

Lol! I'm glad I got you interested but I'm not stupid enough to bet against a hof'er!

Just show up and shoot! We don't have to bet anything.

How many years have you told me you were gonna come to some UBR matches? Why would I make that bet? If a ppc and you are as great as the records say....I'd be crazy.

Then again, I did drive a few hundred miles to shoot a match that I was "certain" you'd be at. That was my mistake.

I take that back...It was not a mistake because I met some great folks and had a good time.

One day matches and shooting score aren’t my thing. But like I said I’m willing to make an exception but I’m not changing my shooting year for nothing.

I’ve never told you that I was going to shoot a UBR match. I said,” I’d like to” and I would but the UBR schedule has a tendency of conflicting with other matches.

As far as the South Eastern Regionals. That certainly wasn’t on the schedule after a long year of traveling and shooting. I’m already in the South Eastern Regional HOF so no big draw for me.

Bart
 
Wow Bart sounds like you ruffled some feathers. The truth does that at times. Since you were asked to stop, being the gentleman you are I know you will heed. I'm kind of glad because your accolades as a true rifleman in many shooting circles are very rare to say the least. I'm only hoping that a few good PPC's show up at the Tack Driver Showdown or the winner who is not shooting one will be king for the day, however I'd rather be the king of 50yrs. Just saying!
 
I believe I built my first 6PPC in 1979. I had been shooting a 6x47 for about three years and had a very good shooting one with which I had won a lot of awards. There were a few 6PPC's starting to show up and I could see that was going to be the way to go so I put mine together in the winter of '79. I built it on a Wichita Mini action and from the outset, I could see it was going to be the best shooting rifle I shot, up to that time. My 6x47 would shoot groups in the high ones to low .2's but this PPC shot low ones often enough that I came to expect it. The first match I shot with it was the NW Regional LV championship at Issaquah, Wash. which I won. I continued winning with that rifle for as long as I had it. By the way, at that same match they held an unlimited match on the first day and I came in second at 100 yards; shooting the old 6x47 Sporter so it still shot too. As I recall, Sam Wilson won that stage shooting a 223. We both then demonstrated how to completely blow up at 200 yd.
I built another 6ppc on another Wichita Mini for a customer and it was the best rifle I have ever shot. When I tested it, the average of three five shot groups was .097. I was sorely tempted to keep it for myself.
The big difference, I found, between the 6ppc and the 6x47 was, just as you were starting to get good groups, the 6 by would start loosening primer pockets. The Federal Match brass I was using at the time was good for about five loading before the pockets were too loose. The ppc case was enough stronger that one could load well into the accurate zone and never loosen a pocket
I built a few 6BR's at about the same time and they shot well too but the brass forming was a real pain in the butt. I do believe, had 6 BR brass been available, already formed, the 6ppc might not have been quite so dominant. I bought formed BR brass from Cindy Six and it was worth it to not have to do it myself! Ever the contrarian, I presently shoot a 6BR (original Remington dimensions) for short range BR. On the rare occasion when I compete, I no longer win but that says more about my lack of commitment to winning these days than about the capability of the cartridge. WH
 
Tell you what Mike! I’ll make it a UBR YEAR just for you! You and I will have a standing wager of 500.00 a match. Should be a no brainer for you since you’re a National Champion and all! You shoot your highly touted Mike Ezell 6 Grendel and I’ll shoot my 50 year old technology 6PPC.

Easy money for you!

Bart
I've reconsidered your bet....
While you probably have more money than I do, I can afford to take you up on your bet for one match...the UBR Nationals, Junction City, Ky. September 11th and 12th.
You in?

Higher finish in the grand agg in custom class wins.

$500

Easy money for a Hall of Famer. I'll even shoot a 6 Grendel. Isn't that like fighting with one hand tied?

Let's shoot!
 
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I've reconsidered your bet....
While you probably have more money than I do, I can afford to take you up on your bet for one match...the UBR Nationals, Junction City, Ky. September 11th and 12th.
You in?

Higher finish in the grand agg in custom class wins.

$500

Easy money for a Hall of Famer. I'll even shoot a 6 Grendel. Isn't that like fighting with one hand tied?

Let's shoot!

No cherry-picking Mike the Whole UBR season! You want me to shoot UBR. LETS SHOOT UBR! Don’t start poor mouthing about money, it shouldn’t cost you anything. You’re already a National Champion shooting against and beating the best in the World. I on the other hand haven’t even been in the parking lot of a UBR match. It will be like taking candy from a baby.

Bart
 
No cherry-picking Mike the Whole UBR season! You want me to shoot UBR. LETS SHOOT UBR! Don’t start poor mouthing about money, it shouldn’t cost you anything. You’re already a National Champion shooting against and beating the best in the World. I on the other hand haven’t even been in the parking lot of a UBR match. It will be like taking candy from a baby.

Bart
Is that a no?
 
Thanks for all the replies! Now I’d like to narrow the original question - what attributes (eg; primer size, flash hole diameter, shoulder angle, case volume, etc) of the 6PPC are believed to make it inherently accurate? How many are common to the other 6mm calibers noted above? I’m just a lowly shooter that enjoys all the experimentation that has previously been performed and wondering, perhaps prompting, where the wildcatters are next “playing”:D!

Im glad to read that Bart and Mike are optimistically making plans for the next shooting season... stay safe everyone!
 
Is that a no?

It a yes for the Season! Back up that big talk of yours! What are you scared of? This is your game not mine. You’re the biggest talker on this board. Back it up! This is your chance to show the World how good you REALLY are.

OH Yeah the Nationals will be part of that!

Bart
 
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It a yes for the Season! Back up that big talk of yours! What are you scared of? This is your game not mine. You’re the biggest talker on this board. Back it up! This is your chance to show the World how good you REALLY are.

OH Yeah the Nationals will be part of that!

Bart
Lol! Smh.
You should give the game a try. You might like it.
Now back to the OP. Sorry for the hijack.
 
rwj,

the powder column length VS inside case diameter and taper and resultant case length is the reason.

It's a shame you do not have access to Precision Shooting Magazines from the 1970's era.
Ferris Pindell and Dr Palmisano were inveterate tinkers, and short range BR shooters. All of their experiments were detailed there. The PPC is based on the 220 russian case.

The last viable experiment/attempt to beat the PPC was by Seeley Masker and Dave Tooley in the early 1990's, iirc. Masker did not like shooters using a russian assault cartridge to shoot BR. He took Lapua (again, iirc) 30-30 brass and basically replicated the 219 Donaldson Wasp except in 6mm. He also turned the rims down to .308 case head diameter. It was competitive in the NE area. There's a Gun Digest from that era and an article by then PS editor Dave Brennan called "The Assault on Palmisano (again, iirc) which detailed the efforts of Masker, Tooley, and a few others using the SMW.

Back then Federal made match grade 222 and 6x47 (necked up 222 magnum). High quality, to be sure. They were able to convince Federal to make a run of what was termed "30 American" brass. 30-30, small primer pocket, 308 case head diameter and match grade in all specs. At that time Lapua was not making the high quality PPC brass they are today. Many shooters would prep their PPC brass, fire form on the warm up match, shoot the five 5-shot matches for aggregate, and generally just throw the brass in the trash barrel. Primer Pockets would loosen bad. The 6mm Seeley Masker Wasp got popular. It woke Lapua up, and that killed the Wasp. They began to produce better/stronger cases. Shooters would rather just turn the case necks, trim to length, and go shoot the PPC than mess with shortening the 30-30 case to SMW.

It is a shame you younger people (under 50) have not heard the pre-PPC history. Early on, a match with 50 shooters would have 30 or more different wildcats there. A lot of them were gunsmiths. They would invent a variant of the Wasp, win two or three straight matches, and customers would flock to them to get a new barrel or set their current one back if it still looked good down the bore.

My favorite pre-222 Remington was the Marciante Blue Streak. He was a gun smith, and one evening before a big match he formed the basic case out of one of the 30-30 family. The Wasp case shortened the 30-30 about 1/10th of an inch and maximized case capacity with decreased taper and a sharp should.
Most gun smiths made their own single flute reamers. Marciante left the case full length, and cut a reamer to match. He won the next day, and the Blue Streak was a contender. Unfortunately, the 222 came out shortly thereafter, and it and the rest of the 30-30 based cartridges died.

Rich

PS: gentlemen who know more are welcome to correct me here.
 
The truth is, the PPC is a very good cartridge but it is not magic. I still see all sorts of PPC's which shoot in the .3's at best. If the rifle is right though, the PPC is quite easy to work with; so is the 6BR. I can attest that both are easier to work with than the 6x47 was. WH
 
My next rifle will be a 6ppc. I like the short game. Been looking seriously at.rifles.on shooters corner. A little input from the pros would be nice. Looks like rifles by the top gunsmiths are there. For about $2000 I believe I could be in business. Looking at light varmint like these:

Kelby panda
Borden TPE
Nesika J

Seems.the bats are very popular but a little more expensive

Just a gun to get.started with. I know i probably would need.to rebarrel. Do you always have to send the rifle to get.a barrel properly chambered.




Kel
 
If I found a PPC there I liked, I would buy it and see how it shoots before rebarreling. Kelblys have been around for a very long time, and they are stable. Benchrest actions are what they do.
If it will shoot in the .3's it will be a near perfect training rifle. When it drops around 1/2" for 5-shots, then it is time to rebarrel.

just IMHO, YMMV...

Rich
 
My next rifle will be a 6ppc. I like the short game. Been looking seriously at.rifles.on shooters corner. A little input from the pros would be nice. Looks like rifles by the top gunsmiths are there. For about $2000 I believe I could be in business. Looking at light varmint like these:

Kelby panda
Borden TPE
Nesika J

Seems.the bats are very popular but a little more expensive

Just a gun to get.started with. I know i probably would need.to rebarrel. Do you always have to send the rifle to get.a barrel properly chambered.




Kel
Kelbly’s will chamber a barrel for you without you sending in the Panda action. They will ask for the SN and details of what you want.
CW
 
Something like these

.
B352. 6PPC Hvy Varmint, Stolle polished Panda R/L action; Krieger 22” bbl 1-13½ T .262 nk; c.4-500 rnds;
Kelbly f-glass pillar g-bedding TMBR model stock, black w/silver metal flakes; Shilen 2 oz trig; Gunsmith:
Kelbly, Inc.; Exc cond; First class competition Panda rig. $1795

B277. 6PPC Light Varmint, Stolle Panda Polished R/L action; Krieger 22¾” bbl 1-14” twist .262 nk; <900
rnds; Six pistol gripless f-glass glue-in stock; white w/Maroon accent stripe; Jewell 2 oz trig; Includes:
Teardrop bolt knob; Gunsmith: F. Hasecuster; Exc. Cond. This rig has placed in top 20 in a past Super
Shoot. $1789.

B193. 6PPC Light Varmint, Stolle Panda R/L action; Hart bbl 21½", 1-14"T, .262 nk, 1400 rnds; Borden f-
glass glue-in stock, Black; Jewell 2 oz trig; Gunsmith: Hammonds Rifles; VG/exc cond. Great 10½ lb class
piece on a classic action. $1699.
 
I'm not a BR shooter but those actions are all left ports which as I understand it generally aren't as desirable because they either don't have an ejector or if they do, it's very difficult to keep cases from falling off the bench. The current technology is a dual port, left load right eject or a drop port. I've had the advice passed along that if it's not one of those configurations, a right port with an ejector is generally a better way to go than a left port. That's the little info I have about it, I'm still learning myself. I'd be interested to hear what the BR shooters here feel about it.
 
I'm not a BR shooter but those actions are all left ports which as I understand it generally aren't as desirable because they either don't have an ejector or if they do, it's very difficult to keep cases from falling off the bench. The current technology is a dual port, left load right eject or a drop port. I've had the advice passed along that if it's not one of those configurations, a right port with an ejector is generally a better way to go than a left port. That's the little info I have about it, I'm still learning myself. I'd be interested to hear what the BR shooters here feel about it.
I just started shooting short range BR a couple of years ago. I bought a used rifle much like the first on the list above. I did have it made into a drop port, love it!
CW
 

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