Body Die + Neck Sizing vs FLR Die

[Loudcherokee]

Hi folks,

Getting ready to start loading for an AR I just built. 20" heavy fluted barrel from BCA with a 1:9 twist. BCA's picture on their website that was with the barrel showed a .161 test group with 69gr Noslers.

I know being a semi-auto AR that I will need to full length resize every case, and also load COAL to mag length as a maximum. What I'm curious about, is the use of a body die, say from Redding, to full length resize the case minus the neck, and then follow that up with a Lee collet die to size the neck.

I plan to do some testing to see if I need to crimp the rounds or not. I will load 3-4 rounds of factory ammo in the mag on top of one of my reloads that have not been crimped, and then after firing the factory ammo, checking my reload to check for any changes to OAL. Then chamber it and check again. If I need to crimp I will, I have the Lee factory Crimp die already.

I bought 100 69g SMKs and 100 73g Hornady ELD-M for testing. Going to use an old can of Varget I have just to see what I can get the rifle to do, but plan to switch to 4064, 4895, or RL15 later on because of the scarcity of Varget.

LC

 

[marchboom]

I use a Forster FL size die for my 2 ARs and the bullets have never moved under recoil. Concentricity is very good.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Add in the undersize stem for the Collet die.
About $5
Skip the crimp.

 

[Loudcherokee]

I use a Forster FL size die for my 2 ARs and the bullets have never moved under recoil. Concentricity is very good.

Do you use the standard Forster FL die or the bushing bump die?

LC

 

[KMart]

Do you use the standard Forster FL die or the bushing bump die?

LC

Your safest bet for AR loading is a full length sizing die that does not use bushings. The Forster bushing bump die does not size below the shoulder and it can deal an AR some misery.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The rcbs sb full length die set in the black box always works good on a factory chamber.

 

[Loudcherokee]

I'm not against full length resizing at all since it's an AR, but I'm hoping to control the neck resizing and tension separately. So if I used a full length die, I would pull the decapping pin so it would just size the body and shoulders of the case.

That's why I was wondering about the redding body die and if it full length resize the whole case minus the neck or if it just bumps the shoulders.

LC

 

[Rocketvapor]

The Small Base Die is a safe bet for an AR you want to run fast.
The Redding Body Die has been adequate for .223 and 22 Nosler AR's but I don't pew pew pew
Here are two tumbled case, 4th fired 22N.
You can see where the Redding Die touches the cases.

 

[jamesh]

I'm not against full length resizing at all since it's an AR, but I'm hoping to control the neck resizing and tension separately. So if I used a full length die, I would pull the decapping pin so it would just size the body and shoulders of the case.

That's why I was wondering about the redding body die and if it full length resize the whole case minus the neck or if it just bumps the shoulders.

LC

It will full length size the whole case except the neck. I prefer using a full length bushing die though.

 

[Loudcherokee]

The Small Base Die is a safe bet for an AR you want to run fast.
The Redding Body Die has been adequate for .223 and 22 Nosler AR's but I don't pew pew pew
Here are two tumbled case, 4th fired 22N.
You can see where the Redding Die touches the cases. View attachment 1162422

Not planning on running this one fast at all. I have a 16" AR for that. I use the full lee die set on a turret press to load 62gr plinking ammo with win748 and the factory crimp die.

I'm planning to get new dies specifically for this rifle and load them all on my single stage press with a micrometer seating die, and keeping everything separate from my 16" AR.



LC

 

[Loudcherokee]

It will full length size the whole case except the neck. I prefer using a full length bushing die though.

The bushing will resize the neck though, correct?

LC

 

[Richard Coody]

As you notice from the responses people use all these different techniques sucessfully. I have too.

You have to find what works for you.

Just my opinion. I use the redding body die and lee collet die for .223 sometimes but i had just as good results using a forster full length sizing die with the expander ball. Why add the extra step? Personally for this application i don't like a bushing die because invariably they don't size the entire neck.

I am sure someone will pipe right up with why i am wrong but all i can say is this works for.me.

 

[B23]

The bushing will resize the neck though, correct?

LC

A Redding FL bushing die does everything a regular FL die does, except it uses bushings to allow you to control how much you size the neck to control whatever amount of neck tension you want. It's the best of both worlds in one die.

 

[rsmithsr50]

one: SKIP THE SMALL BASE DIE UNLESS FIRST TIME SIZING BRASS FROM ANOTHER RIFLE period
two: skip any die with an expander button
three: SINGLE OPERATION of fl size with a bushing does very well.
four: neck sizing .003 tension is plenty, .002 will work in most cases
five: skip the crimp, for mil full auto, not semi auto civilians

 

[Rocketvapor]

I modified a .223 collet die for my 22N. Gets to within a few thousandths of the full neck.
You can see where the body die stops and the neck die picks up.
The Collet die also does not draw up through the neck.
Using the -0.002 stem I get neck tension based on the inside diameter not the outside diameter.


If there was one best way, everyone would be doing it.

 

[divingin]

So if I used a full length die, I would pull the decapping pin so it would just size the body and shoulders of the case.

Probably won't work. Most FL dies squeeze the necks way down, then the expander ball opens it up to the final size. Removing the expander will leave you with a tiny neck diameter.

That's why I was wondering about the redding body die and if it full length resize the whole case minus the neck or if it just bumps the shoulders.

Does the body and shoulder. If you're going that route, a full length bushing die will require one less step.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I buy bulk once fired Lake City 5.56 brass that was fired in a multitude of different chambers. With the first sizing I use a RCBS AR series small base die to bring the cases back to SAAMI minimum dimensions. I reload for two AR15 rifles and two bolt action .223 rifles and after the first firing in the AR15s I use a Forster full length die. And this Forster die produces resized cases with the same amount or less neck run out as a body die and the Lee collet die. Below are just some of the dies I tested and there are three dies missing from this photo.

I recommend the Forster full length benchrest sizing and seater dies for producing the most concentric ammunition. Chambers and dies vary in size and my Lee full length .223 die will reduce the case diameter more than my RCBS small base die does.

When resizing for a semi-auto the sized case diameter should be .003 to .005 smaller than its fired diameter. This allows the case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably. Meaning you "may" need to use a small base die all the time depending on your chamber diameter and brass spring back. This also means bumping the case shoulder back "more" than you would for a bolt action. And I try to bump the shoulders back .003 also and give the case some wiggle room. "The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".This is a quote from the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic test lap and competitive shooter.

Below I installed a Forster expander and spindle assembly in my RCBS .223 small base die to reduce neck runout. The Forster dies have a high mounted floating expander and the case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning the expander can not pull the neck off center and induce neck runout.

Your AR15 can chew up case rims and any ding in the rim can cause the case to tilt in the shell holder and cause runout. And the Forster die prevents this case tilt on the down stroke of the ram.

And now the shocker, a standard Lee full length die came in third place in case neck runout. The locking collet holds and centers the expander preventing the expander from being locked down off center. And if the threads in the die and on the locking collet were not so rough I think the neck runout would be less.

Note, the Lee collet die can leave raised vertical marks on the case neck. And when checking case neck runout your gauge will go over these "speed bumps" and drive you nuts. And the Forster die or any normal die does not create "speed bumps" and add confusion to your neck runout readings. I check neck runout after sizing and again after bullet seating to make sure the dies are set up correctly. And this is just one reason why I do not like using the Lee collet die, plus having to size the case twice.

So if you do not own a runout gauge the much cheaper Lee full length die would also be a good choice for the average reloader.

Sorry for the long posting I drank too much coffee and have two hyper typing fingers.

 

[jamesh]

The bushing will resize the neck though, correct?

LC

Yes that is correct.

 

[jamesh]

You can also use a full length bushing die as a body die if you remove the bushing.

 

[Loudcherokee]

I appreciate the thorough response, uncle Ed.

I actually use the Forster benchrest seater in my .308 and get really good, repeatable results with it, on paper anyways. I do not yet have a concentricity gauge to check run out.

So I see you mentioned the collet die putting fingers on the outside of the case necks. What are your thoughts on the bushing dies potentially pushing these fingers through to the inside of the case necks? I've seen that mentioned as a concern on other posts when neck sizing comes up.

Some of the brass I plan on using in this AR has been shot out of my other AR, but since full length resize with the Lee die. Are you saying I will have to run that brass through a small base die before running it through my new AR, or am I good to go if it chambers? I'm working with old brass until I can order some Lapua in .223 for making true match loads.

I should also add that I forgot to mention this 20" AR is chambered in .223 Wylde, not 5.56 or .223 Rem.

LC