Body Die + Neck Sizing vs FLR Die

[Richard Coody]

Best practice dedicated brass to each rifle.

Sounds like you have built a precision ar. You certainly want dedicated brass for it. Unfortunately ar's are hard on brass. Bent case necks ( put a piece of sticky backed velcro as a pad on your shell deflector). Chewed up case rims especially in overgassed guns. When they don't go in your shell holder easily you will notice it. I hated it when my carefully prepped lapua brass was so abused.

 

[Loudcherokee]

Best practice dedicated brass to each rifle.

Sounds like you have built a precision ar. You certainly want dedicated brass for it. Unfortunately ar's are hard on brass. Bent case necks ( put a piece of sticky backed velcro as a pad on your shell deflector). Chewed up case rims especially in overgassed guns. When they don't go in your shell holder easily you will notice it. I hated it when my carefully prepped lapua brass was so abused.

That's the goal is getting Lapua brass for just this rifle. I was going to use the once fired Lake City stuff I have though just to see if the rifle will produce a good group before investing in the expensive brass.

Yes, I had precision in mind when I built it, albeit budget minded. Hopefully getting to fire it this weekend and break in the barrel a bit. It's a BCA 20" heavy fluted barrel, delton M4 upper, Anderson lower, PSA MOE plus parts kit with polished trigger group, Luth AR stock with adjustable LOP and Cheek Riser, and CBC 15" Mlok free float rail. YHM phantom smooth comp to top it off. The glass is Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x mildot reticle, but unfortunately its SFP with MOA turrets and not MIL turrets. That will be replaced as funds allow. Threw it in a cheap cantilever mount just to get it on there, but that will be upgraded also when I get new glass.

Good tip on padding the deflector. I had not thought of that.

LC

 

[Uncle Ed]

I appreciate the thorough response, uncle Ed.

I actually use the Forster benchrest seater in my .308 and get really good, repeatable results with it, on paper anyways. I do not yet have a concentricity gauge to check run out.

So I see you mentioned the collet die putting fingers on the outside of the case necks. What are your thoughts on the bushing dies potentially pushing these fingers through to the inside of the case necks? I've seen that mentioned as a concern on other posts when neck sizing comes up.

Some of the brass I plan on using in this AR has been shot out of my other AR, but since full length resize with the Lee die. Are you saying I will have to run that brass through a small base die before running it through my new AR, or am I good to go if it chambers? I'm working with old brass until I can order some Lapua in .223 for making true match loads.

I should also add that I forgot to mention this 20" AR is chambered in .223 Wylde, not 5.56 or .223 Rem.

LC

Bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass.

The Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to use the expander that comes with their bushing dies.

And the video below by the 6.5 Guys tells you they get less neck runout with the Forster die than using a Redding bushing die. And I have Redding bushing dies in .223, 243 and .308 and get less neck runout with Forster full length dies that do not have honed necks. And the more a bushing die has to reduce the neck diameter the greater the chance the floating bushing will move from side to side or tilt and cause neck runout.

Below you can see the clearance on the sides of the bushing and the red lines show you the area of the neck that will not be sized.

If you want you can use any full length or small base die and use a Lyman .223 type "M" expander. On my AR15 ammo I use this expander for more bullet grip. And bump the case mouth on to the .226 section of the expander. This allows the bullet to be seated by hand and straight without any bullet tilt. I then use a taper crimp die to "slightly" close up and streamline the case mouth for smooth feeding in the AR15.

Bottom line, forget bushing dies or Lee collet dies, any full length die without the expander will make the case as concentric as it ever will be. And the Lyman expander or Forster expanders will not pull the necks off center and induce neck runout. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid the AR15 is not a bench rest rifle. I have a AR15 HBAR and only use sorted and prepped Lake City Brass and would never think about using Lapua brass in a rifle that throws perfectly good brass away and makes you go look for it.

Now look at the chart below and look at the chamber diameters and variations in throat diameter and length. And this is in comparison to your Wylde chamber, a match chamber and a military type AR chamber.

 

[rsmithsr50]

well look up 223 wylde in SAAAMI and see what it says ?
bill wylde designed a REAMER for mil rifle matches so one could shoot both short range(200/300) with mag fed ammo, and to be able to shoot long range(600 yards) with SINGLE LOADED ROUNDS THAT ARE TYPICALLY 2.4XX IN length.
it is a poor choice for a rifle that is not used in mil matches.
(what does it say on the side of the receiver ? 223 or 556 ?)

I should also add that I forgot to mention this 20" AR is chambered in .223 Wylde, not 5.56 or .223 Rem.

LC

 

[rsmithsr50]

once you have a load ,TUNE the ejector.
trim the spring one coil at a time.
buy a couple of spares before you start.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

A good bushing die will size all the way to the shoulder

 

[bozo699]

You can also use a full length bushing die as a body die if you remove the bushing.

That’s one reason I buy them right there!
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

That's the goal is getting Lapua brass for just this rifle. I was going to use the once fired Lake City stuff I have though just to see if the rifle will produce a good group before investing in the expensive brass.

Yes, I had precision in mind when I built it, albeit budget minded. Hopefully getting to fire it this weekend and break in the barrel a bit. It's a BCA 20" heavy fluted barrel, delton M4 upper, Anderson lower, PSA MOE plus parts kit with polished trigger group, Luth AR stock with adjustable LOP and Cheek Riser, and CBC 15" Mlok free float rail. YHM phantom smooth comp to top it off. The glass is Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x mildot reticle, but unfortunately its SFP with MOA turrets and not MIL turrets. That will be replaced as funds allow. Threw it in a cheap cantilever mount just to get it on there, but that will be upgraded also when I get new glass.

Good tip on padding the deflector. I had not thought of that.

LC

since we live in America and not Europe or Asia..... metric system....Thank God your moa turrets are perfect! And for what your doing that first focal plane will work fine. Nice setup
Wayne

 

[marchboom]

Do you use the standard Forster FL die or the bushing bump die?

LC

I use the standard FL sizing die.

 

[dellet]

Or you could take a novel approach and tune the gas system so that you don’t beat up your brass or throw it into the next county.

Start with an undersized gas port, and the longest length gas tube for your barrel length, if it becomes an issue you can ream it later. An adjustable gas block is not a bad idea. Unless you really think you need to cycle at speeds that will allow 900 shots per minute, anything off the shelf will be over gassed.

Choose a quality bolt and carrier. My preference is Lewis Machine and Tool. Their enhanced bolt and carrier does a few things that really help.

The extractor claw has a dual spring increasing holding power and is cut to allow a full face bolt. This aids extraction and eliminates the “D” shaped impression left by normal bolts, the case head is fully supported.

The cam path in the carrier is lengthened. This slows down unlock time of the bolt allowing the case to shrink more before extraction. Less stress and deformation of the rim trying to pull a case out that is still expanding against the chamber just above the web. Less need for a small base die.

You can take that one step further with a captured spring and buffer assembly allowing you to adjust weight and spring tension.

It will never be as easy on brass as a bolt action, but if you stay off of max loads and have a neck sizing die that goes all the way to the base of the neck and kisses the shoulder, you can treat it more like a bolt action, than an AR on the reloading bench.

Getting rid of the unneeded bolt speed and violence of the action will also show up on the target and speed up follow up shots.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Save $$ By Using Lake City 5.56x45mm Once-Fired GI Brass
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/10/save-by-using-lake-city-5-56x45mm-once-fired-gi-brass/
Preparing Once-Fired GI 5.56 Brass for Reloading (Part 1 of 3)
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=AMU+brass+prep&submit=Search

This week, Handloading Hump-Day will answer a special request from several competitive shooters in Alaska. They asked about procedures for morphing once-fired GI 5.56mm brass into accurate match brass for NRA High Power Rifle use. The USAMU has used virgin Lake City (LC) 5.56 brass to win National Championships and set National Records for many years. In this 3-part series, we’ll share techniques proven to wring match-winning accuracy from combat-grade brass.

Accuracy Potential of Mil-Surp 5.56×45 Brass
So, how accurate can previously-fired GI surplus brass be in a good National Match AR-15? Well, here’s a data point from many years ago that might be of interest. A High Power shooter who wrote for the late Precision Shooting magazine took a Bill Wylde-built AR match rifle to a registered Benchrest match. His first 5-round group ever fired in a BR match was officially measured at 0.231″ at 200 hundred yards. This was fired in front of witnesses, while using a moving target backer that confirmed all five rounds were fired.

He recounted that his ammo was loaded progressively with factory 52gr match bullets and a spherical powder using mixed years of LC brass with no special preparation whatsoever. Obviously, this was “exceptional”. However, he had no difficulty obtaining consistent 0.5-0.6 MOA accuracy at 200 yards using LC brass and a generic “practice” load that was not tuned to his rifle.

To the OP, go ahead and spend the money and buy Lapua brass when you can buy bulk once fired Lake City brass for a fraction of the cost. (and not cry if you lose a few cases)

And if you buy the once fired Lake City brass you can join and be a member of the cheap bastard club!

 

[jepp2]

and also load COAL to mag length as a maximum

Not really. If you window the front of your magazine you can significantly increase COAL. I have loaded to 2.370" with this simple modification. I started with a steel magazine (probably didn't have to) and only had a Dremel cutoff wheel to use. I can load 5 rounds in my magazine as modified.

 

[LVLAaron]

I use a Forster full length resizer with the decapping stem/ball removed. As my final step before reloading I run a mandrel through the neck. This was the single biggest improvement in AR precision I ever did.

I'd say it works pretty well

 

[Rocketvapor]

My 88's are a little longer than mag length
Still working on a final load.
Gonna go back out as soon as the flood recedes at my local range and do another seating depth test.
Going on the assumption that the ELD's like a little jump I'm stopping at about 0.035" jump. (0.065 to 0.035)
Just a guess. That dummy round is Touching.

 

[Loudcherokee]

Good point about not using the Lapua. The factory ammo I bought to break in the barrel is 5.56 stamped Frontier. Perhaps I will start fresh with that. I have 100 rounds worth, but the primer pockets are crimped so I'll have to ream those out. No biggie, ive got the necessary tools to do so.

Also been considering starline brass from what I've read. Seems to be a possibility, at a fraction of the cost.

Interesting about the tunable BCG. I may certainly look into that.

I'm not against using Lake City brass at all. I've got a bunch of it already, from my other AR.

Lvlaaron that is a nice group! What kind of mandrel are you using after the forster die?

LC

 

[rsmithsr50]

skip the cheap brass even mid range brass if you want small groups

 

[tomswede]

well look up 223 wylde in SAAAMI and see what it says ?
bill wylde designed a REAMER for mil rifle matches so one could shoot both short range(200/300) with mag fed ammo, and to be able to shoot long range(600 yards) with SINGLE LOADED ROUNDS THAT ARE TYPICALLY 2.4XX IN length.
it is a poor choice for a rifle that is not used in mil matches.
(what does it say on the side of the receiver ? 223 or 556 ?)

The Wylde chamber is a great choice, allows mag length loads with very good accuracy and single loading of longer/heavier bullets that does not work in a mag. There is really no downside to this chamber. On brass I personally think Lapua brass is a waste in an AR, LC is excellent quality and inexpensive. No crying if a few LC cases get lost. It’s an AR not a bench gun.

 

[Webster]

Been reloading 50 years never crimped. I am puzzled, it sounds like guys are saying they crimp bullets without a crimping grove. What's the story here?

 

[rsmithsr50]

no some ar's are target rifles, designed to be shot from a bench. the wylde chamber makes a mile jump for all lite bullets by design . it is a very poor choice for a short range target shooter. no benchrest shooter would build a rifle with a built in massive jump for the bullet they intend to use, why do the same in TARGET AR ? just dumb.
there is a terible down side to the chamber, you cannot get a lite bullet close to the lands.
listen to the words,TARGET AR, not mil long range nor blasting ar.

The Wylde chamber is a great choice, allows mag length loads with very good accuracy and single loading of longer/heavier bullets that does not work in a mag. There is really no downside to this chamber. On brass I personally think Lapua brass is a waste in an AR, LC is excellent quality and inexpensive. No crying if a few LC cases get lost. It’s an AR not a bench gun.

 

[Richard Coody]

Barrels for all my precision AR's are .223 barrels.

Wilde is a great chamber if you want to be able to shoot bulk 5.56 ammo too.

Truth is all those chambers vary wildly unless you purchase a premium .223 barrel.

Here is an interesting article about the difference

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/