Berger 7mm 190gr long range hybrid

[whatwind?]

tested the 190's today with reloader 25, b/c my "match" load was H4831sc and I cant find it and have 5 lbs RL25 waiting for me

68 F , 35% hum , 30.34 BP, +250 DA in Louisiana
7-300wsm, norma brass, 215m primer, 30" bartlein bbl, 8.75 twist

2.417 CBTO, 3.157 COAL

63 gr = 2784 avg (started w/ clean bbl)
64 gr = 2860 avg 3 shots, 12 es, 6.5 sd and good accuracy
65 gr = 2902 avg 2 shots (3rd wouldn't chamber) 1.8 sd 2.5 es

will investigate more once I run out of 180 hybrids

today with RL 25 and 180 hybrids 2.419 cbto
64.02 gr = 2935 4.5 sd 3 shots...this is same velocity with 61.02 H4831sc
65.02 gr = 2983
65.80 gr = 3010 1.57 sd 3.13 es 3 shots !!

 

[davidjoe]

tested the 190's today with reloader 25, b/c my "match" load was H4831sc and I cant find it and have 5 lbs RL25 waiting for me

68 F , 35% hum , 30.34 BP, +250 DA in Louisiana
7-300wsm, norma brass, 215m primer, 30" bartlein bbl, 8.75 twist

2.417 CBTO, 3.157 COAL

63 gr = 2784 avg (started w/ clean bbl)
64 gr = 2860 avg 3 shots, 12 es, 6.5 sd and good accuracy
65 gr = 2902 avg 2 shots (3rd wouldn't chamber) 1.8 sd 2.5 es

will investigate more once I run out of 180 hybrids

today with RL 25 and 180 hybrids 2.419 cbto
64.02 gr = 2935 4.5 sd 3 shots...this is same velocity with 61.02 H4831sc
65.02 gr = 2983
65.80 gr = 3010 1.57 sd 3.13 sd 3 shots !!

Brother that’s brave of you to try it and report publicly, because all the high finishers just know for a fact that it absolutely doesn’t work. Cartridges left open in the sunlight will explode, and rumor has it the barrels must be cleaned between shots. And it won’t be approved of or even tried while Alliant is indifferent to sponsoring F-Class matches.

 

[rardoin]

Retested the 190’s at 300yds with higher charges of N160 and a spread of RL-23. Both powders had best vertical and appeared to have a node at 2830fps with a 0.016” jump. No clickers or stiff lift until 2870’s in Peterson brass. Now for seating depth test at 600yds.

 

[Willow]

Retested the 190’s at 300yds with higher charges of N160 and a spread of RL-23. Both powders had best vertical and appeared to have a node at 2830fps with a 0.016” jump. No clickers or stiff lift until 2870’s in Peterson brass. Now for seating depth test at 600yds.

May I ask how much RL23 you needed to reach that 2830 node?

 

[rardoin]

May I ask how much RL23 you needed to reach that 2830 node?

You may.... In that test (86 rds on the tube) 54.6gr RL-23 produced 2833 fps avg for 4 shots. My ES/SD were a bit 'fat' so I retested with cases sized with the next step down neck bushing. I repeated an N160 test and the difference in velocity with a 53.5gr charge was 2782 fps vs 2842 with the higher neck tension. I know RL-23 likes higher neck tension so if you are running .002" interference with a 0.014" (+/-) neck I would guess you would take a half grain or more less charge to reach the 2820-30fps range.

 

[Phillip Crowe]

rardoin,
I'm curious about your barrel's throat. I've thought about trying the 190's but have not yet because I don't want to extend the throat. In my barrels (284) the 180 hybrids are comfortably above the neck shoulder junction, the 184's are barely above at .010" off. Seems like I would have to seat the 190's deeper than I like, or throat it out.
Thank you for your posting your results in testing the 190's.

 

[rardoin]

I have a .225” freebore and the bearing surface is completely in the neck at 0.015” off light touch with a zero round count barrel.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

My reamer is supposed to be .218”. The 190’s are just above the donut at .015” off in a new barrel.

I’m starting to wonder how accurately ground my reamer is...

 

[whatwind?]

i just realized the g7 bc is .384....damn vs. 180 hybrid at .349....according to berger website all else equal it takes about 110fps more for 180 to equal 190 at 1000 with 10 mpg wind....

 

[dskogman]

i just realized the g7 bc is .384....damn vs. 180 hybrid at .349....according to berger website all else equal it takes about 110fps more for 180 to equal 190 at 1000 with 10 mpg wind....

More like 220 fps according to Bergers ballistic calculator

 

[davidjoe]

You guys shooting .284’s, your cartridge won’t blow up tipped 195’s. If you like the idea of 190’s over 180’s or 184’s, you would love the performance of 195’s in a .284. Once you tip them, they are on or above the Berger BC/weight ratio line.

I have never blown one up in a .284, only, and I should say extremely rarely, in a saum. I have shot them as fast as 2,900 FPS from a .284 without issue, since 2016, many thousands.

I do have 190’s on order to use in my rsaum’s but they will probably need 100 FPS more speed than 195’s to keep up at 1,000.

 

[No i deer]

At what velocity do you run the 195s that beats the saum with 184s at 1000yds and by how much..??

 

[davidjoe]

At what velocity do you run the 195s that beats the saum with 184s at 1000yds and by how much..??

I load 195’s to 2850 in a 284. MUCH faster in a saum. That will put these bullets on target at 1,000 yards at 1765. Looking at Doug’s post above about needing 220 FPS to get a 180 to drift like a 190, that’s essentially the exact gap between a tipped 195 and a tipped 184. Most guys won’t try reloader 25 or the equivalent if there is one, and so there is no chance of shooting 184s at or above 3,070. On the other hand I’ve shot 195’s over 3,100 (saum) with that powder.

This target picture shows what groups I can reasonably expect at 1,000 with .284/195.

Don’t be alarmed that on a windy day the SD was high because that can happen with head/tail wind changes.

 

[davidjoe]

How far was JBM off from my target average velocity? 9 foot per second but there was likely head wind. This picture below will confirm the exact matching up of the target above, with the data below. So I’d trust those JBM wind drift figures as well, and I’d be guessing without checking that you’d need more like 3,100 with 184’s. Edit: or more because in truth I have shot them over 3,200 FPS and still couldn’t discern equivalence.

As my margin notes show, that’s 57.0 grains of Re 25.

The one thing I can’t really program in is the slight benefit of tipping but it only helps wind drift.

 

[davidjoe]

I’ve only recently talked up the 195/284 a lot after using it for years because only now that Berger is acknowledging finally (twice 184 - 190) that even the 284 needs a heavier bullet, there’s absolutely no reason not to make the 195 blow-up proof - so that I and the other BC mongers can carry on our happy ways.

 

[No i deer]

Hi Dave
Thanks for the info..!!
I don't think the 195's are very popular over here but after reading your comments I'm not sure why..!!
There is Reloader 25 over here but I've never used it..
Reloader swiss RS70 is a high energy powder that maybe a match for reloader 25 but I did here RS70 is temperature sensitive...
How much windrift is there between the 184s and the 195s say in a 10mph full value wind at 1000yds..??

 

[davidjoe]

Berger’s roll roll out of the 195’s spooked target shooters. They printed a twist rate minimum of 8 for probably two years. Then 8.5. Now it is correctly labeled “9”. The other thing is that it has never been regarded as match grade accurate because it was sold in the orange hunting bullet box.

JBM says that if you shoot the 195 and the 184 at 2,850 the 1k yard wind drift at 10 mph is:

195= 4.8 moa
184= 5.4 moa

I have no experience with 25 in really cold weather. I only know it’s good to go in the US sunbelt states.

The thinner bullet jacket was designed to work on game. I have no interest in killing an elk. I’d suggest to Berger that since some of us can blow these up in just air, the thicker target jacket will still expand fine on elk. Elk should account for sales of at least a couple boxes of bullets.

 

[No i deer]

Thanks again Dave.
The width of The vbull is quite a saving on windage and more than I expected..!!!
Have you tried the 190gr A tips yet.??

 

[davidjoe]

Sure thing, a few guys have tried them and told me they were very happily surprised.

I have some 190’s due to arrive Saturday via fed ex. They come tipped and that means I’ll likely also be testing them Saturday and using them in our club midrange in a saum, Sunday. I’ll put an etarget match on this thread.


I misread, sorry, no I don’t have any 190 A-Tips. Just the 300’s which I like very much and the 250’s which I’m going to resume testing in .308 but with a fresh barrel.

 

[lawrence97]

I tested the 190’s in a 284 Shehane with RL23 at 1000 yards. I tested 52.3,52.8 and 53.3(pressure and hard bolt lift). None of the groups were impressive and had vertical over 10”-15”. My rifle will typically shoot 20rds of 184’s into a 4”-8” group on a calm day.

The 190’s measure the same OAL as my lot of 184’s. My 184 load is running around 2850 fps. At 53.3 the 190’s showed pressure and were running 2820-2830. I ran the 190’s alongside my shooting buddy and his rifle shot just as bad with the 190’s. We also observed a decrease in BC at 1000 yards compared to what our tipped 184’s do.

At the moment, I’d say a straight 284 or a 284 Shehane will perform the best with 180’s or 184’s and that is what is currently dominating in the fclass/f-open leaderboards.

Hopefully some will have luck with the 190’s in a magnum cartridge but for now I will skip these and continue to use what is winning.