AR 15 build advice

[VaniB]

Well an ar can be incredibly accurate but i wouldn't say bolt gun accurate. My 6mm ar turbo 40 improved built by Robert Whitley was such a gun.

9

Yes, this photo on your post #17 from page 1 didn't go unnoticed. lol. At one time I considered having Mr. Whitley build me an AR for this kind of accuracy. But I decided that I really didn't want a varmint style looking AR15. I wanted my AR rifles to resemble a military rifle with traditional A2 post, forward assist, collapsible stock, rail handguard, etc. So I bought a Krieger and John Hollinger/White Oak barrel instead, but could still never get this kind of accuracy except for a freak 5-shot 1/2" group once in awhile that I couldn't duplicate easy. Years ago, I actually sent my RRA National Match upper to John Hollinger with his $400 barrel in it. He could NOT get consistant groups either. It was no different then the RRA NM rifle with 3/4"and 7/8" groups. He was a great guy and refunded the money for the barrel. Same issue with the Krieger Oberle barrels. Never got consistent tight groups, and I now settle for regular 1" groups with my two AR rifles.

I am normally quite capable of tight 5 shot groups as long as it's a bolt action;

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

Unless you are willing to buy the tools needed to correctly assemble an upper, it would be wise to buy a complete upper from somebody. Assembling a lower is not hard and doesnt require any special tools. But, you likely wont save much if any money. I would recommend buying the complete rifle from a known good supplier. It will function properly and have a better resale value.

I also agree unless you can borrow tools and maybe get some help using them, better to buy the upper unless you expect to build several ARs. The tools are what I thought about too, I probably have spent around $200-300 on AR tools. I agree it’s mostly the upper that requires special but I also needed a special slab-sided punch for installing the bolt release pin on my mil-spec lowers. Also on the upper it’s not just tools but also a little finesse to get the gas-tube aligned well, something I have had some trouble with. I have Geissele triggers in all my ARs but I think if you are watching the cost closely you may want to try a LaRue trigger which could be in the sweet spot for performance below $100. The cheapest barrel I have that shoots well was a gov’t profile from Green Mountain barrel company around $150 but I only bought one there. I bought another barrel in that price range from a company no longer in operation and that barrel was terrible.

 

[mauser284]

I have never shot 1/4 MOA with any AR. That said I have never shot one from a bench either. I qualified with a M16 A2 in 1988. I only just purchased my first AR lower and 1 parts a year ago. I for every guy I know with a true sub-MOA AR I know 10 guys with 1MOA to 2MOA AR's. Now this is not a slight against the AR it is always a weapon system made up of the rifle, optics, ammo and shooter. Likewise I have never shot my Ruger 10-22 from a bench or any of my hand guns either.

My oldest son is a good shoot and 3 gun competitor and he shoots his AR a lot. Ever since basic he has maintained his all of his tactical shooting skills. My mother inlaw is a fantastic shoot and world class hunter. She could give any professional hunter a run for their money.

When it comes to group sizes as my own personal standard I like to shoot 9 to 10 groups. 3 shot or 5 shoot groups what ever the rifle holds from the factory and average that. If it is an exceptional best ever group I will always mention it. Sadly few people seem to have anything like that sort of standard.

Group sizes shrink every time the story is told just like the size of the fish increases every time the story is told. So no one should believe 1/2 of what they hear and 1/3 of what they read! LOL

 

[Rocketvapor]

5 into .5 @100, bipod and bag, AR-15
The top row is two repeated rows of 3 shots separated by 1/2 MOA in verticle.
One group in the second row was over 1 MOA. Sheet happens.
3rd row is 5 shot groups.

and ALMOST 1 MOA for 20 shots
Play it at 2X speed and it goes twice as fast

Not great but my fish stories are real

 

[VaniB]

......... Group sizes shrink every time the story is told just like the size of the fish increases every time the story is told. So no one should believe 1/2 of what they hear and 1/3 of what they read! LOL

You're right. Most AR rifles weren't intended to deliver 1/2" and smaller 5-shot benchrest type groups, and few shooters even care about shooting for tight groups. I go to the 100 yard range and see most guys content with just making a lot of noise and keeping the holes on the paper in 6"-12" groups. I'm the only one ever there with my AR rifles with 3 wind-flags set up at different yardage and a hart rest with an interchangeable mechanical Sinclair cradle. I try for 5 shot 3/4" groups, but find 7/8"- 1 is more common for me.
I will say though that one day about 12-15 years ago I witnessed a guy there who had a Les Baer AR15 rifle resting on sand bags. The guy had a target out at 100 yards which was a sheet of paper with 4 rows of orange dots with 5 dots per row. I watched this guy through my spotting scope take 3 shots at each orange dot. He moved left to right making tight 3 shot 1/2"moa clusters over each dot row to row. I had never seen anybody shoot an AR15 at such an even timed pace and so accurately. But, he was the exception and I had never seen anything like that again at the public range.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yes, this photo on your post #17 from page 1 didn't go unnoticed. lol. At one time I considered having Mr. Whitley build me an AR for this kind of accuracy. But I decided that I really didn't want a varmint style looking AR15. I wanted my AR rifles to resemble a military rifle with traditional A2 post, forward assist, collapsible stock, rail handguard, etc. So I bought a Krieger and John Hollinger/White Oak barrel instead, but could still never get this kind of accuracy except for a freak 5-shot 1/2" group once in awhile that I couldn't duplicate easy. Years ago, I actually sent my RRA National Match upper to John Hollinger with his $400 barrel in it. He could NOT get consistant groups either. It was no different then the RRA NM rifle with 3/4"and 7/8" groups. He was a great guy and refunded the money for the barrel. Same issue with the Krieger Oberle barrels. Never got consistent tight groups, and I now settle for regular 1" groups with my two AR rifles.

I am normally quite capable of tight 5 shot groups as long as it's a bolt action;

View attachment 1160062

Every time i see a picture like that i feel like those dimes, quarters, rulers, cases, etc are covering flyers. Not saying yours is but ive seen it too many times. Nice group

 

[Richard Coody]

Yes, this photo on your post #17 from page 1 didn't go unnoticed. lol. At one time I considered having Mr. Whitley build me an AR for this kind of accuracy. But I decided that I really didn't want a varmint style looking AR15. I wanted my AR rifles to resemble a military rifle with traditional A2 post, forward assist, collapsible stock, rail handguard, etc. So I bought a Krieger and John Hollinger/White Oak barrel instead, but could still never get this kind of accuracy except for a freak 5-shot 1/2" group once in awhile that I couldn't duplicate easy. Years ago, I actually sent my RRA National Match upper to John Hollinger with his $400 barrel in it. He could NOT get consistant groups either. It was no different then the RRA NM rifle with 3/4"and 7/8" groups. He was a great guy and refunded the money for the barrel. Same issue with the Krieger Oberle barrels. Never got consistent tight groups, and I now settle for regular 1" groups with my two AR rifles.

I am normally quite capable of tight 5 shot groups as long as it's a bolt action;

View attachment 1160062

Yep
My savage shoots.better and doesn't tear up.brass. i don't even reload.for.my ar's anymore. And i alsi

I have never shot 1/4 MOA with any AR. That said I have never shot one from a bench either. I qualified with a M16 A2 in 1988. I only just purchased my first AR lower and 1 parts a year ago. I for every guy I know with a true sub-MOA AR I know 10 guys with 1MOA to 2MOA AR's. Now this is not a slight against the AR it is always a weapon system made up of the rifle, optics, ammo and shooter. Likewise I have never shot my Ruger 10-22 from a bench or any of my hand guns either.

My oldest son is a good shoot and 3 gun competitor and he shoots his AR a lot. Ever since basic he has maintained his all of his tactical shooting skills. My mother inlaw is a fantastic shoot and world class hunter. She could give any professional hunter a run for their money.

When it comes to group sizes as my own personal standard I like to shoot 9 to 10 groups. 3 shot or 5 shoot groups what ever the rifle holds from the factory and average that. If it is an exceptional best ever group I will always mention it. Sadly few people seem to have anything like that sort of standard.

Group sizes shrink every time the story is told just like the size of the fish increases every time the story is told. So no one should believe 1/2 of what they hear and 1/3 of what they read! LOL

Robert designed the cartridge for high power competition. Here are some targets he shot during load workup. Nothing special about the groups i have shot with his upper.

http://www.6mmar.com/site/mobile?url=http://www.6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo_40_Improved.php#3003

 

[cem]

My advice? Don't expect to save money on the first build. Don't even expect to break even. Once set up the marginal cost for the next build can be pushed down by careful shopping but the cost of tooling may mean the average total cost stays higher than careful shopping for all but the most expensive builds. I bought each and all the Zediker books including reloading and a fistful of other books and DVD's.

For completeness I bought a discounted tool kit from Avid but I also spent a good deal on what I believed were top end tools like the Geissele top end Super reaction rod with a locking feature and expensive wrenches and torque wrenches.

I'm very much inclined to believe that the first time having the best of tools helps. I find that with experience improvised and economy tools are entirely adequate but not the first time. I accumulated many other tools from Brownell's on sale and free shipping days. I've invested in head space gages. Remember NOT to just leave the firing pin out when checking head space.

I tell myself that it's a fun hobby; can be a social or family bonding experience and I can replace a worn barrel on my own schedule and save a fair piece of money. Building an 80% lower is a conversation piece not a saving. Gambling on a Stoner barrel on sale can be a real win with very little money wasted if it doesn't shoot to hopes. I bought a Shilen barrel and bolt on clearance from Midway for a nicer barrel at a lower price. Mixing and matching a number of uppers and lowers is fun in the end.

 

[Richard Coody]

Building AR's can become addicting. I caught the disease for a few years after buying a PSA stock AR because i had never had one. Still have it. Its my truck gun. Built several precision AR's. Best i ever built would average about 5/8" over 5 five shot groups. Those precision ar's just turn out so heavy they really aren't practical for anything but shooting groups. The AR i use most now is a 6.5 grendel i built as light as reasonably possible and still be accurate. Weighs a little over 7.5 pounds scope and all.

Of course i have a mega side charging upper and a young's manufacturing side charging bolt carrier group and a jp grendel bolt. Think this one will be a fat rat with a 26" bull barrel. Need a gun bearer to take it anywhere but.the range.

 

[GSS]

Those precision ar's just turn out so heavy they really aren't practical for anything but shooting groups.

Just in case anyone isn't aware that what many consider a "Heavy AR" that is only good for shooting groups off the bench have another use if configured within the rules. ( my service rifles weigh around 16 pounds )

Scopes were made legal in 2016 with a Max scope power of 4.5x

There is a thing called NRA and CMP Service Rifle Competition and it's actually quite a thing...

The National Championships have been going on for over 100 years at Camp Perry Ohio.
Those used to be a combined CMP / NRA event but are now run solely by the CMP at Camp Perry with over 1000 people competing in each of the two BIG (NTI and Presidents 100 ) matches each year. Everyday Joe citizen shooters get to compete shoulder to shoulder with all of the military big teams in these matches.

I have been there to compete 13 times since 2003 so I am not a full authority by any means but is an awesome event and a great use of AR15's that actually has some great ties to the history of this great country.

http://old.thecmp.org/competitions/cmp-national-matches/the-national-matches-history/

The NRA Annual Championships are now held in Indiana since the CMP / NRA divorce a few years ago


For this service rifle competition we shoot slow fire standing from 200 yards with no sling support.
We shoot 200 rapid sitting with sling support firing 2 rounds then a mag change and 8 rounds for 10 shots for record in a total of 60 seconds
Then we do rapid again from 300 yards with sling support 2 and 8 rounds but in 70 seconds
Then we move back to 600 and do 20 shots for record in a max of 20 minutes in prone with sling support.

Benches, bipods, sandbags etc are all illegal.
The shooter supports the rifle with only sling support once past the standing stage.

Many of us love this as it is more of a skill / marksmanship contest where hard work and heavy practice are the only way to improve as opposed to a expensive equipment and reloading contest.

Ni slight in any way intended for F Class or benchrest shooters as once i get too old to shoot service rifle from positions i will eventually switch over to those sports. I'm coming up on 60 this year but i think i am fit enough for at least a few more years...

Just didn't want people thinking AR's are only good for lightweight zombie shootin or heavy weight bench shooting...
George

Here is a picture of a service rifle being shot by a shooting buddy of mine from the prone position with only the legal sling support..

 

[Rocketvapor]

My not legal side charge .223 along side the wife's side charge.
Her's is a light weight at 12 pounds. Mine isn't
Just for fun.

 

[VaniB]

Every time i see a picture like that i feel like those dimes, quarters, rulers, cases, etc are covering flyers. Not saying yours is but ive seen it too many times. Nice group

When suspecting trickery or a lie, take it from the source. Sometimes you can readily weigh the evidence of what you're seeing and hearing from that particular member who's posting. I spent post #61 telling you that I can't get better then a rare 1/2" group from my AR rifles with the best Krieger and white Oak barrels and that most of my groups were 3/4" to 7/8", and that I've now settled for 1" groups. In my 221 Fireball thread where you've also participated, I mentioned that I've shot 1/2" 5 shot groups with that rifle. But I didn't say 1/4" or 3/8" groups, did I?

I could show you another photo of this target without the ruler or the cartridge standing there, but I figured to myself why bother? You could always reply "It's possibly 4 shots fired from 25yards, 50 yards, or 50 feet. Not saying yours is but ive seen it too many times. Nice group "

 

[Westhunder]

I have read about half this thread, think I got the gist. I “build” a lot of ar’s. It’s not gunsmithing and there are very few if any special tools that are really necessary. It’s like LEGO’s. If you buy the cheap one they don’t stay together and the colors and fit is just off.

now with that said, bcm’s newest upper is titties. Very tight tolerances for an upper receiver, requires thermal fit of most barrel nuts. You can buy a lapping tool the square the face if you are really trying to squeeze all the accuracy out of the gun. You need to throw that ft lbs for barrel nut card out the door, tighten it German tight, loosen, repeat, 3 times, with light grease. This will get your thread stretch out. 75-100lbs is not unheard of, and also not Mil-Spec. There are some receivers out, I think aero, that have a nut in the grip area that tighten against the pin in the rear to get the rattle out, however this is generally not that critical. It really only affect accuracy when you are loading the gun on a bipod in bag bc it “wiggles”. This can also be fixed with matching receiver sets, set screw (which you can add yourself) or jb weld. Lmt makes their receiver with dimples that you file for a perfect fit. Sometimes cerakoted receivers match up well bc of increase in thickness..... I can go on and on. Alg great trigger, cheap. Geissele even better. And there are many other. Go stainless for a barrel, like the Douglas I have for sale or insert many other great manufacturers. Cold hammer forged, chrome lined, better for blasters, operators, and those who want a bullet proof barrel. If you really want info, ask someone that builds them for what you are looking for. Some people specialize in making an ar something it’s not designed to be, but are great at it. Some rifles shoot bug holes. Some shoot zombies. Some people like me build across the board and have tried just about everything and know what works, and where to spend the money that matters. Bcg, upper, barrel. Not in any particular order. Some of my best guns are psa Lowers. Almost all of them have Bcm uppers. Bcm makes a fantastic gun for a very honest price. If you want more info give me a call, I’ll give you my number in a pm. I don’t claim to know it all but I’ll shoot you straight and help you if I can. I’ve tried it all at least once.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I bet the Op already has his parts
Hope he didn't overspend and waste money.
Something that doesn't come out much is the juggling you need to do to select parts and pick vendors so you don't end up paying more for shipping than for the parts. If it does not contribute to accuracy/reliability I usually don't pay for looks.
Look at some of the 'I'm gonna build threads' and how much of the 'build' is a list of Prada parts?
And I'm sorry if the build word upsets those that actually build rifles or has a favorite smith that builds for them.
Assembling an AR can include some operations beyond just assembly.
Even some home made parts and modifications to improve on 'mil spec'

I watch for sales and free shipping days to save a few bucks.
If I want a stable shooter that's better than I can shoot, sometimes that means giving up on the lightweight parts.
But, you see these costly ultralight parts showing up in long range guns.

The joint between bolt/barrel/barrel nut/receiver/fore end is the center of life for an AR.
The structure of this joint holds and aligns the entire upper. A zone about 2 inches long.
There are stronger uppers than the BCA Side Charge, but usually for a lot more $$.
I have several. The MEGA is stronger, but in areas it might not be needed.
Thermal fit between the barrel and receiver is great, but can be fixed during the build is needed.
The worst is having a sloppy fit and thinking the force of firing won't flex right where you don't want flex.

Look closely at the next parts list thread you see.
How much came from ooh shiny pictures, and colors that match the walpaper in your mancave? Oh no, the upper and lower are a slightly different shade of FDE. That's gonna cost a 1/4 MOA. Pick whats important to you, but don't blow smoke that it's better. Unless it really is better.
And Triggers Have a favorite brand, style, or price range?
How about super buffers and quite springs in a prone AR?

OK, I'm done. Back to posting groups.

 

[GSS]

So I think the time has come that I feel I should own an AR. To be honest...I've kinda been opposed to the idea that I NEED one, but it's been on my mind as of late. A friend showed me one he recently built using PSA parts for like 400 bucks all in, and said he's very pleased with it. I know nothing about them, but like the idea of bargain shopping for parts over a period of time to put one together. I believe his qualifies as a pistol with a 13.5" bbl, but I would want a rifle, so 16" plus on the bbl.

I'm looking for some advice from seasoned AR owners/builders here on what parts to buy, and what to pass on when building a budget AR. I want economical parts, but not junk parts. I want common stuff that interchanges easily with another brand parts. Not really looking for recommendations on complete rifles at this time. All new to me, so....Perhaps there are specific sales from time to time I should be aware of?

To me this will be strictly a home defense/anti tyranny piece. I plan to shoot it enough to begin with to be familiar with one in a pinch. As far as accuracy requirements It'd be nice if it was capable of shooting a few kinds of bulk ammo under moa @ 100 yds. I don't see myself chasing benchrest accuracy with it at all, as I don't plan to reload for it.

grovey,

You had plenty of people take time to respond to your questions.
(with waay more info than you were asking for )

How are you making out with your build?

Have you ordered any parts yet and started assembly or do you have it completed?

Or did you change your mind and drop the idea?

It's nice to see people reply to close a thread after people tried to help them out as opposed to just disappear after asking for input.

We all remember our 1st AR and i hope you build and enjoy yours.

George
https://nfga.org/leveridge-range/

 

[grovey]

To be honest I was a bit overwhelmed with info, and it seemed like the $350-400 AR I asked about would be a POS with less than stellar accuracy. I haven't ordered anything,and at this point I doubt I do. I can pick a cheap one up on the local classifieds if I go thru with it.

 

[Richard Coody]

To be honest I was a bit overwhelmed with info, and it seemed like the $350-400 AR I asked about would be a POS with less than stellar accuracy. I haven't ordered anything,and at this point I doubt I do. I can pick a cheap one up on the local classifieds if I go thru with it.

Well just for your information i still own the first ar i bought
A bone stock PSA AR15. All those precision ar's are.gone. get you one. They are fun to shoot. Like a kid with a new .22. That is all they are really. A souped up .22 rifle.

 

[GSS]

So I think the time has come that I feel I should own an AR. To be honest...I've kinda been opposed to the idea that I NEED one, but it's been on my mind as of late. A friend showed me one he recently built using PSA parts for like 400 bucks all in, and said he's very pleased with it. I know nothing about them, but like the idea of bargain shopping for parts over a period of time to put one together. I believe his qualifies as a pistol with a 13.5" bbl, but I would want a rifle, so 16" plus on the bbl.

I'm looking for some advice from seasoned AR owners/builders here on what parts to buy, and what to pass on when building a budget AR. I want economical parts, but not junk parts. I want common stuff that interchanges easily with another brand parts. Not really looking for recommendations on complete rifles at this time. All new to me, so....Perhaps there are specific sales from time to time I should be aware of?

To me this will be strictly a home defense/anti tyranny piece. I plan to shoot it enough to begin with to be familiar with one in a pinch. As far as accuracy requirements It'd be nice if it was capable of shooting a few kinds of bulk ammo under moa @ 100 yds. I don't see myself chasing benchrest accuracy with it at all, as I don't plan to reload for it.

---------------

To be honest I was a bit overwhelmed with info, and it seemed like the $350-400 AR I asked about would be a POS with less than stellar accuracy. I haven't ordered anything,and at this point I doubt I do. I can pick a cheap one up on the local classifieds if I go thru with it.

groovey,
Thanks for replying and not just walking away from this thread giving up on just wanting a fun "home defense/anti tyranny piece" AR15 to begin with.

This thread is a great example of how a person asks a basic / simple question and the thread ends up way over the top with responses turning the original poster off (myself included in this situation in this thread).

Sometimes I think people respond the thread without even reading or considering what the original posters questions was.

Maybe now this thread can get back on topic to provide groovey good information on what he is actually asking for a question.
I'm a 200 - 600 yard service rifle guy so I can't really help grovey
We have heard from many that enjoy trying to make AR's into benchrest rifles, they can't really help groovey
We have heard from many that enjoy telling people how much better other rifles are that AR's for benchrest rifles, they can't really help groovey

Maybe someone that has bought or built a few "home defense/anti tyranny pieces" like groovey is asking about on a modest budget can chime in or repeat good advice.

groovey,
As an experienced service rifle shooter I can at least tell you from what you explained you are looking for you should be able to do for a very reasonable price >>>>> but you need to adjust your accuracy expectations from moa or under at 100 yards with bulk ammo <<<<

If you use at least a 16" barrel and you can be happy with 2 moa +/- .5 at 100 yards with bulk ammo you will be happy.
*** It may do better but you need to start with realistic expectations..

You could possibly even go a shorter barrel and get that making it an even better for a home defense/anti tyranny piece where it would be used at less than 100 yards and need to put many rounds down range fast in a head or chest sized group.

I hope you get to buy or build exactly what you are looking for

George
https://nfga.org/leveridge-range/

 

[grovey]

Thanks George, and thanks to everyone for trying to school me and steer me in the right direction. I was on the fence to begin with, and it took alot to get me there in the first place. lol I reckon the price point needed to end up with a gun that might be able to shoot MOA was what made me loose interest. Chasing tiny groups spoils you when you shoot, and a gun that's only capable of MOA doesn't have much appeal. As I said I may pick up something used locally if the need,or opportunity arises.

 

[grovey]

Every time i see a picture like that i feel like those dimes, quarters, rulers, cases, etc are covering flyers. Not saying yours is but ive seen it too many times. Nice group

Here's the one I use to show groups for shooting forums....