Future of AR-Tactical Poll

[GSS]

Silly question for those that have gained classification cards from shooting AR-Tactical class:

Does the classification card say F-class or something else?

QUOTE]


Good Question
Hopefully someone that has received a classification card from the NRA for this Class will chime in with 1ST HAND info on a card they actually received

 

[kzin]

That sounds perfect! Thanks for the info!

Yeah, hopefully they up the classification scores some. At worst everybody knows the 'AR Tactical' cards are stupid easy.

It's not a new issue. Everybody knows that the only real HM is Service Rifle With Irons

I still don't know how my smallbore f master card rates against other disciplines.

 

[XTR]

@GSS (and to some extent @Turbulent Turtle )George first of all, based on my first hand experience with what is done in New England it is is not similar to pretty much anywhere else, except maybe some of the Atlantic coast ranges. The level of oversight, and control that is exercised most others would find quite foreign. I get that the ranges here are surrounded by anti's but it's still different. (and just for note I am currently or have been a member of two other clubs in NH addition to NFGA in the last couple of yrs).

Second, How is a mag loaded into a bipod mounted rifle in the prone position in any way more likely to get a round offsite than either off hand or slung up sitting or prone? I don't get it, if the bipod is on the ground there is no way to get the muzzle high enough to get one much above the number boards, and if you're lifting the stock to pull the mag your pointing at the dirt.

 

[GSS]

Sling shooters at all the Northeast Clubs I am referring to are all also required single load from 600 as well.

I didn't create the rule at any of these clubs.
They were there when i started attending matches back in 2003

I agree with the rule tho because one round over the berm from any of those clubs could result in the club completely shut down.
It's just seems common sense obvious to me that a loaded mag has more of a chance for an accidental round going out over the berm from 600.
Experienced shooters like Myself Wade/XTR or others Obviously much less chance
New / Unexperienced Shooters ( Like AR Tactical is trying to get to attend ) much more chance

People that put in many, many hours keeping the ranges running may care more about this concern than others that may just come and pay their match fees and leave and could just go shoot somewhere else if they happen to close one of the clubs down

Seem like the risk ( all be it slight ) isn't worth it.
Again, depends how much sweat equity you have into the club and how much you care if it gets shut down. I know at NFGA there would be around 1100 dues paying members wouldn't be happy with me if I was the Match Director when the round that closes the club down leaves the range.

The person that launched the round out getting the club closed down certainly wouldn't be covered under the liberal whistleblower standard that such people can remain anonymous... ;-)

Just look at an aerial map of any of the ranges as to where a round would / could land if it went over the berm at Nashua, Reading, Pelham, or Scarborough. Nothing good for landing spots over the berm.

Unlike Perry, or Bolton Vermont where the impact zone of a rounds launched out of nearly any caliber at any trajectory has 0.00001% of causing any harm or damage. There could be that guy in a fishing boat that snuck into the impact area at Perry and they didn't get the cease fire called fast enough..

George

 

[kzin]

Hopefully someone that has received a classification card from the NRA for this Class will chime in with 1ST HAND info on a card they actually received

yep

If not it turns out the thread I had in mind is on rifleteams('midrange question') and contains a copy/paste of actual classifications on the computer. Fair chance you know at least one of the posters involved?

They also point out that it depends on the scores being properly reported separately. So any one card not specifically designated 'tactical' could be admin error.

"
HIGH POWER RIFLE MASTER 11/11/2003
HIGH POWER RIFLE LONG RANGE UNCLASSIFIED 2/20/2015
F-CLASS MID-RANGE UNCLASSIFIED 11/1/2016
HPR MID-RANGE PRONE MASTER 8/14/2018
HPR MID RANGE PRONE TACTICAL HIGH MASTER 10/2/2018
"
This is 1 persons classification list.

 

[GSS]

yep

If not it turns out the thread I had in mind is on rifleteams('midrange question') and contains a copy/paste of actual classifications on the computer. Fair chance you know at least one of the posters involved?

They also point out that it depends on the scores being properly reported separately. So any one card not specifically designated 'tactical' could be admin error.

"
HIGH POWER RIFLE MASTER 11/11/2003
HIGH POWER RIFLE LONG RANGE UNCLASSIFIED 2/20/2015
F-CLASS MID-RANGE UNCLASSIFIED 11/1/2016
HPR MID-RANGE PRONE MASTER 8/14/2018
HPR MID RANGE PRONE TACTICAL HIGH MASTER 10/2/2018
"
This is 1 persons classification list.

I never go on the Prone section of the USNM rifle teams just the XTC forum so I didn't see that but Thank You
George

 

[kzin]

I never go on the Prone section of the USNM rifle teams just the XTC forum so I didn't see that but Thank You
George

It's on the 'xtc' site, not long range.
general shooting forum, still on first page

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Mr. Ten-x is close

Not quite sure what you mean. Though I suggested the game to the HP Committee Chair in like 2013? Gave him a complete set of rules that were logical and would bring maximum participation. He knew better though and you are stuck with what he changed it to.

Was actually hoping to shoot the class, but fishing is sounding much better again.

 

[SWRichmond]

Guys it's not all about seeing how much money we can spend to beat other people. There are millions of stock AR-15 rifles in otherwise largely unskilled hands. We need to provide a regular training opportunity for these people in a fun environment where they can learn about competition and become better shooters. Virtually none of the AR owners I know know anything about wind reading, among those who do not compete, which is the vast majority of them. We need to assist them building confidence and skills.

One of the barriers to entering competition is perception of skill level. You can consider the below a training wheels category if you wish. Our purpose here is to encourage new shooters. Please do not lose sight of that.

5.56 / .223
20" bbl max
12x or 15x scope max
Sled allowed
Bipod and rear squeeze bag no ears.
No inflatable balloon or other body supports.
Shooter/Harris style bipod/squeezie bag/scope/ mat
Magpul BAD
Mag length ammo
= Tactical AR15 Class

Anything else is open class. You guys who want to have 6 Creedmoor AR-10's built can compete with each other.

Part of starting competition is realizing how well some people can do the sport you're in, motivating you to do better, and even to consider improving your equipment. But not everyone is there for Pure sport. Most people simply want to become better Riflemen. We want to encourage many more people to engage in the Shooting Sports. We do this by making entry simple but presenting them with challenge.

 

[GSS]

Guys it's not all about seeing how much money we can spend to beat other people. There are millions of stock AR-15 rifles in otherwise largely unskilled hands. We need to provide a regular training opportunity for these people in a fun environment where they can learn about competition and become better shooters. Virtually none of the AR owners I know know anything about wind reading, among those who do not compete, which is the vast majority of them. We need to assist them building confidence and skills.

One of the barriers to entering competition is perception of skill level. You can consider the below a training wheels category if you wish. Our purpose here is to encourage new shooters. Please do not lose sight of that.

5.56 / .223
20" bbl max
12x or 15x scope max
Sled allowed
Bipod and rear squeeze bag no ears.
No inflatable balloon or other body supports.
Shooter/Harris style bipod/squeezie bag/scope/ mat
Magpul BAD
Mag length ammo
= Tactical AR15 Class

Anything else is open class. You guys who want to have 6 Creedmoor AR-10's built can compete with each other.

Part of starting competition is realizing how well some people can do the sport you're in, motivating you to do better, and even to consider improving your equipment. But not everyone is there for Pure sport. Most people simply want to become better Riflemen. We want to encourage many more people to engage in the Shooting Sports. We do this by making entry simple but presenting them with challenge.

That looks about perfect to me.
I wouldn't even mind if they got to shoot on the Sling target in this class so they could feel good about fairly easily making Master / HM In That Class before taking the training wheels off.

Even if this is as far as some people want to go to make the higher levels of the classification in this without spending much money or putting in much work...

I / we will welcome them at the matches we run as long as they are safe and having fun.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Guys it's not all about seeing how much money we can spend to beat other people. There are millions of stock AR-15 rifles in otherwise largely unskilled hands. We need to provide a regular training opportunity for these people in a fun environment where they can learn about competition and become better shooters. Virtually none of the AR owners I know know anything about wind reading, among those who do not compete, which is the vast majority of them. We need to assist them building confidence and skills.

One of the barriers to entering competition is perception of skill level. You can consider the below a training wheels category if you wish. Our purpose here is to encourage new shooters. Please do not lose sight of that.

5.56 / .223
20" bbl max
12x or 15x scope max
Sled allowed
Bipod and rear squeeze bag no ears.
No inflatable balloon or other body supports.
Shooter/Harris style bipod/squeezie bag/scope/ mat
Magpul BAD
Mag length ammo
= Tactical AR15 Class

Anything else is open class. You guys who want to have 6 Creedmoor AR-10's built can compete with each other.

Part of starting competition is realizing how well some people can do the sport you're in, motivating you to do better, and even to consider improving your equipment. But not everyone is there for Pure sport. Most people simply want to become better Riflemen. We want to encourage many more people to engage in the Shooting Sports. We do this by making entry simple but presenting them with challenge.

This ^^^^^^ is without a doubt the best post in this thread.

Don Dunlap

 

[Herzo]

Guys it's not all about seeing how much money we can spend to beat other people. There are millions of stock AR-15 rifles in otherwise largely unskilled hands. We need to provide a regular training opportunity for these people in a fun environment where they can learn about competition and become better shooters. Virtually none of the AR owners I know know anything about wind reading, among those who do not compete, which is the vast majority of them. We need to assist them building confidence and skills.

One of the barriers to entering competition is perception of skill level. You can consider the below a training wheels category if you wish. Our purpose here is to encourage new shooters. Please do not lose sight of that.

5.56 / .223
20" bbl max
12x or 15x scope max
Sled allowed
Bipod and rear squeeze bag no ears.
No inflatable balloon or other body supports.
Shooter/Harris style bipod/squeezie bag/scope/ mat
Magpul BAD
Mag length ammo
= Tactical AR15 Class

Anything else is open class. You guys who want to have 6 Creedmoor AR-10's built can compete with each other.

Part of starting competition is realizing how well some people can do the sport you're in, motivating you to do better, and even to consider improving your equipment. But not everyone is there for Pure sport. Most people simply want to become better Riflemen. We want to encourage many more people to engage in the Shooting Sports. We do this by making entry simple but presenting them with challenge.

That's what I was attempting to say in my response to Mr Ten-X. You hit it squarely on the head. Thanks

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Guys it's not all about seeing how much money we can spend to beat other people. There are millions of stock AR-15 rifles in otherwise largely unskilled hands. We need to provide a regular training opportunity for these people in a fun environment where they can learn about competition and become better shooters. Virtually none of the AR owners I know know anything about wind reading, among those who do not compete, which is the vast majority of them. We need to assist them building confidence and skills.

One of the barriers to entering competition is perception of skill level. You can consider the below a training wheels category if you wish. Our purpose here is to encourage new shooters. Please do not lose sight of that.

5.56 / .223
20" bbl max
12x or 15x scope max
Sled allowed
Bipod and rear squeeze bag no ears.
No inflatable balloon or other body supports.
Shooter/Harris style bipod/squeezie bag/scope/ mat
Magpul BAD
Mag length ammo
= Tactical AR15 Class

Anything else is open class. You guys who want to have 6 Creedmoor AR-10's built can compete with each other.

Part of starting competition is realizing how well some people can do the sport you're in, motivating you to do better, and even to consider improving your equipment. But not everyone is there for Pure sport. Most people simply want to become better Riflemen. We want to encourage many more people to engage in the Shooting Sports. We do this by making entry simple but presenting them with challenge.

What you have listed was effectively what was proposed to the NRA originally, with slight differences.

Max magnification was 10X and simply because the biggest selling scope the past 50 years has been 3-9X....so everybody likely owns one. Limiting optics to 10X does not put those having a 3-9X at a serious disadvantage.
Trigger followed the 4.5# service rifle rule...it's more of a safety thing and follows the current CMP/NRA rule.

 

[kzin]

Guys it's not all about seeing how much money we can spend to beat other people. There are millions of stock AR-15 rifles in otherwise largely unskilled hands. We need to provide a regular training opportunity for these people in a fun environment where they can learn about competition and become better shooters. Virtually none of the AR owners I know know anything about wind reading, among those who do not compete, which is the vast majority of them. We need to assist them building confidence and skills.

One of the barriers to entering competition is perception of skill level. You can consider the below a training wheels category if you wish. Our purpose here is to encourage new shooters. Please do not lose sight of that.

5.56 / .223
20" bbl max
12x or 15x scope max
Sled allowed
Bipod and rear squeeze bag no ears.
No inflatable balloon or other body supports.
Shooter/Harris style bipod/squeezie bag/scope/ mat
Magpul BAD
Mag length ammo
= Tactical AR15 Class

Anything else is open class. You guys who want to have 6 Creedmoor AR-10's built can compete with each other.

Part of starting competition is realizing how well some people can do the sport you're in, motivating you to do better, and even to consider improving your equipment. But not everyone is there for Pure sport. Most people simply want to become better Riflemen. We want to encourage many more people to engage in the Shooting Sports. We do this by making entry simple but presenting them with challenge.

Most people like this and this is where the nra highpower committee wants to take us(minus fixing the sled messs).(re post #21)
We're all happy and need another topic to gripe about???

 

[people]

There is a reason some of the other competitions are gaining popularity much faster than just shooting paper.

I know this is slow fire. Rules making them use mag length ammo and single load will cause most to never come out. The ones who did not know about the rule will not come out a second time. A semi-automatic single shot is not going to drive anyone to learn how to shoot better, it will just keep them away.

Back when I shot XC it would bother me to see the high masters put their rifles up by their heads. Almost like they wanted to suck start them. It is ok because they are empty, but I can not just load 20 in a mag and do my thing. Same thing with the 2 and 8 instead of 5 and 5 for rapid fire.

My gripe back then was I am being forced to use my rifle in a way I would never use it in the real world. I was happy when they said we could use 30rd mags and load 5 and 5. As time went on I did load all my ammo mag length. When I was almost done I was shooting the same load for all 88 rounds. I thought it was stupid to have long 69's for 200 slow fire then 69's at mag length for the rapids then 80's for 600. I eventually went to shooting 75 or 77 for everything.

 

[GSS]

There is a reason some of the other competitions are gaining popularity much faster than just shooting paper.

I know this is slow fire. Rules making them use mag length ammo and single load will cause most to never come out. The ones who did not know about the rule will not come out a second time. A semi-automatic single shot is not going to drive anyone to learn how to shoot better, it will just keep them away.

Back when I shot XC it would bother me to see the high masters put their rifles up by their heads. Almost like they wanted to suck start them. It is ok because they are empty, but I can not just load 20 in a mag and do my thing. Same thing with the 2 and 8 instead of 5 and 5 for rapid fire.

My gripe back then was I am being forced to use my rifle in a way I would never use it in the real world. I was happy when they said we could use 30rd mags and load 5 and 5. As time went on I did load all my ammo mag length. When I was almost done I was shooting the same load for all 88 rounds. I thought it was stupid to have long 69's for 200 slow fire then 69's at mag length for the rapids then 80's for 600. I eventually went to shooting 75 or 77 for everything.

LOL

 

[XTR]

There are a lot of things in this game that you can find amusing if you can keep your sense of humor attached, esp if you cross over the lines and shoot more than one discipline.

BPCR shooters universally think it's a mortal sin to put anything but Holy Black and galena into a 45-70, and heaven forbid you should suggest shooting anything else in a Shiloh, the earth may open and the ODGs will come back and escort you through the gates of Perdition.

Six or seven yrs ago the guys who wanted to shoot "tactical" style matches (just before PRS became a thing) scoffed at 18lb 308s with long barrels and expensive bipods with rear bags in F-TR. Everyone wanted to shoot something mag fed with an 18" barrel in the range of 12 lbs with a Harris bipod, and it had to have a brake. Today there are guys shooting PRS carrying enough cushions for a pit group living room suite with tripods and bipods that individually cost more than my seb, not counting the ball head, sporting rifles that won't make weight in F-Open, heaven forbid shooting free recoil!

Service rifle uses SCOPES! and adjustable stocks.... but you better not have an arched or solid trigger housing or anything but an A1/A2 pistol grip.

 

[Warren Dean]

This is a pretty good discussion and I have been following it with interest and it is a subject I am passionate about. I won't bore anyone with my opinion except on one item...keep AR Tactical out of F Class.

Let it live in its own world since the 2 have nothing in common. Local clubs can and will do whatever it takes to get attendance, and I get that. But on a national level...don't go there. I don't believe it will end well.

Several years ago there was a push to add an "F-Tactical" class to F Class and it was shut down pretty quick. Since then, well meaning (I am being very diplomatic here) individuals have suggested changing the NRA HP rules to allow brakes, suppressors, etc. to increase shooter attendance. Here's some advice...play by the existing rules or stay home. Simple as that.

I would LOVE to drive Formula 1 cars but I don't possess that skill set. So what do I do? Accept that I am not able to do it or make a big fuss to change the rules so that I can play? All you have to do is look at women's sports these days to see how that will end.

Shoot whatever and however you want...I'm completely good with that. It is good for the shooting sports in general. But don't go bastardizing established classes with something completely different just because you think it should be. That is insulting and just plain obnoxious and the High Power community as a whole seems to take a dim view of that sort of behavior. And I hope that attitude continues.

 

[Mastershot]

Guys, leave the ar tactical the way it is, just create a new f-open class version which will allow a larger scope, barrel and weight class. And move the target size to f-open. Call it F-open tactical.

 

[JCUtah]

Guys, leave the ar tactical the way it is, just create a new f-open class version which will allow a larger scope, barrel and weight class. And move the target size to f-open. Call it F-open tactical.

We did this exact thing and it's worked. Why? Tell a guy he can't mod a jeep, motorcycle, sxs, and an AR. The Outlaw crew as we named it doesn't compete against the shooters that is following the rules. Besides, some of the guys are getting a little more mature and their eye sight requires more than 15X glass. It's been fun to see the participation.