Future of AR-Tactical Poll

[DE-F-Open]

What should NRA do with this class when it is reviewed in January?

1. Drop it from the book altogether.

2. Keep as is.

3. Make it a full class.


If you vote 3 are there any changes that MUST go along with it?

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Current status of NRA Tactical Mid-Range (Prone) AR:

The NRA High Power Rifle Committee met last weekend and voted to; (a) remove "provisional status" so as to make it a full NRA discipline; and, (b) create two classes of AR Platform rifles within the discipline, (1) .223/5.56, and (2) everything larger up to and including .308.

That was the first step. Those measures now go up to the larger Competitions Rules and Programs Committee and from there to the whole NRA Board for consideration. Nothing will be final until the NRA Board considers and votes on these measures.

Hope this helps the discussion,

John

 

[kzin]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current status of NRA Tactical Mid-Range (Prone) AR:

The NRA High Power Rifle Committee met last weekend and voted to; (a) remove "provisional status" so as to make it a full NRA discipline; and, (b) create two classes of AR Platform rifles within the discipline, (1) .223/5.56, and (2) everything larger up to and including .308.

That was the first step. Those measures now go up to the larger Competitions Rules and Programs Committee and from there to the whole NRA Board for consideration. Nothing will be final until the NRA Board considers and votes on these measures.

Hope this helps the discussion,

John

thanks very much for the info.

So 'discipline' means it will be neither f-class nor prone(sling) but a third discipline at that level?

If you have any contact please pass on that we really need clarification on the magazine-not-sled thing.

Is single loading legal?
Are over mag length rounds legal?
Must the rounds go through a mag?
Can we load a mag with more than one round?

 

[DE-F-Open]

thanks very much for the info.

So 'discipline' means it will be neither f-class nor prone(sling) but a third discipline at that level?

If you have any contact please pass on that we really need clarification on the magazine-not-sled thing.

Is single loading legal?
Are over mag length rounds legal?
Must the rounds go through a mag?
Can we load a mag with more than one round?

My understanding is as follows:

Single loading is legal -
If it works with the mag it's OK
No, they don't have to go through the mag
No, one round at a time
No sleds -

That's my understanding of the rules as written.

John

 

[kzin]

My understanding is as follows:

Single loading is legal -
If it works with the mag it's OK
No, they don't have to go through the mag
No, one round at a time
No sleds -

That's my understanding of the rules as written.

John

Well, the current rules allow multiple interpretations, none of which fully make sense. That's why I say we really need clarification. We've had extended argument in the other thread about which interpretation is the least bad.

 

[LVLAaron]

Whichever options keeps it going, clarifies the rules, and doesn't allow it to turn into an arms race with multi-thousand dollar rifles, custom barrels, "big" calibers, etc. Make it 223, mag length ammo, etc.

 

[Herzo]

Whichever options keeps it going, clarifies the rules, and doesn't allow it to turn into an arms race with multi-thousand dollar rifles, custom barrels, "big" calibers, etc. Make it 223, mag length ammo, etc.

Agree, particularly as to the arms race. It's great to get to the line in one trip.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current status of NRA Tactical Mid-Range (Prone) AR:

The NRA High Power Rifle Committee met last weekend and voted to; (a) remove "provisional status" so as to make it a full NRA discipline; and, (b) create two classes of AR Platform rifles within the discipline, (1) .223/5.56, and (2) everything larger up to and including .308.

That was the first step. Those measures now go up to the larger Competitions Rules and Programs Committee and from there to the whole NRA Board for consideration. Nothing will be final until the NRA Board considers and votes on these measures.

Hope this helps the discussion,

John

Great. So they made it even worse. What is wrong with these people?

 

[Medic505]

They just need a few rounds of hot brass down their collar Denys, it'll snap'em right out of it...

 

[kzin]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current status of NRA Tactical Mid-Range (Prone) AR:

The NRA High Power Rifle Committee met last weekend and voted to; (a) remove "provisional status" so as to make it a full NRA discipline; and, (b) create two classes of AR Platform rifles within the discipline, (1) .223/5.56, and (2) everything larger up to and including .308.

That was the first step. Those measures now go up to the larger Competitions Rules and Programs Committee and from there to the whole NRA Board for consideration. Nothing will be final until the NRA Board considers and votes on these measures.

Hope this helps the discussion,

John

I think this is a fantastic step that makes it possible to get everything right if the details are done correctly.

- clarify mag length only - especially for the 223 class

- that helps make staying on the large target ok for 223 and a good thing for beginners in either class

- scores will be very high in 'tactical open'. If you don't like having to clean to win don't shoot the class.

- set the classification scores for the new discipline to a compromise between 223 and 'open'. We already have that issue between service and match/any and between ftr and f-open.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

They just need a few rounds of hot brass down their collar Denys, it'll snap'em right out of it...

I don't think anything will snap'em right out of their myopia.

I should think the first thing they need to get straight in their mind is simply:
"what are we trying to accomplish here?"

After that that:
"How do we include that into the current format so that match directors can deal with it effectively?"

1- I don't want to measure barrel lengths.
2- I don't want to test trigger pull weight.
3- I don't want to check the scope magnification or worry that people with variables have them set higher than allowed.
4- I don't want people fumbling with loaded magazines on a line full of single shot rifles, especially if these magazines are handled by people who have never shot in a prone competition before. Believe me when I say that I have seen A LOT of strange things on a line over the decades.
5- I don't want to have to check everyone's ammo for mag length.
6- I don't want someone getting High Master after the second match they've ever shot.

Everybody says "we have to make it easy for the newbies." BULL SCHIFF.

So before people say, "well it's just a club match, you don't have to check anything," don't even go there. If that's the case, then why bother with rules in the first place?

And if it's important to make it easy for the newbies, we could just give them a juice box and a participation trophy at the end of the day.

Make it easy and there is no sense of accomplishment.

 

[kzin]

I don't think anything will snap'em right out of their myopia.

I should think the first thing they need to get straight in their mind is simply:
"what are we trying to accomplish here?"

After that that:
"How do we include that into the current format so that match directors can deal with it effectively?"

1- I don't want to measure barrel lengths.
2- I don't want to test trigger pull weight.
3- I don't want to check the scope magnification or worry that people with variables have them set higher than allowed.
4- I don't want people fumbling with loaded magazines on a line full of single shot rifles, especially if these magazines are handled by people who have never shot in a prone competition before. Believe me when I say that I have seen A LOT of strange things on a line over the decades.
5- I don't want to have to check everyone's ammo for mag length.
6- I don't want someone getting High Master after the second match they've ever shot.

Everybody says "we have to make it easy for the newbies." BULL SCHIFF.

So before people say, "well it's just a club match, you don't have to check anything," don't even go there. If that's the case, then why bother with rules in the first place?

And if it's important to make it easy for the newbies, we could just give them a juice box and a participation trophy at the end of the day.

Make it easy and there is no sense of accomplishment.

Issues 1-4 already exist if you're supporting Midrange Prone Service Rifle. A lot more similar issues exist if you administrate a CMP Games match.

Issue 5 - Maybe a good point that it's not worth the trouble.

Issue 6 is not an issue if the new discipline sets the classification scores appropriately for the targets used. Maybe HM needs to be literally 99.5% on the big targets. F-class targets wouldn't bother me either but I don't think that's what will happen and it doesn't seem like it's much of an issue to me.


As far as what rules to check or not that really has little specifically to do with this topic.
F-class has rules that are not routinely checked at least up to the regional level matches I've attended.

Should we either check every F-TR chamber or repeal the caliber rule? Weigh every rifle? Measure every support board? Verify the contact area for every front bag?

Bottom line is that adding classes makes things 'worse' for MDs. Even more so if those classes are heavily restricted by rule. A lot of feedback on this class involves keeping/making it 'not an arms race'. You need to have restrictive rules to do that.

 

[kzin]

I should think the first thing they need to get straight in their mind is simply:
"what are we trying to accomplish here?"

I think this is very true but I don't see that you answered this before proposing specifics any more than anyone else.

Your idea seems to be 'allow AR based rifles to compete in f-class' but I could be wrong.

That is absolutely what NRA has always explicitly said it's NOT meant to be.

Some other people have supported more or less the 'f-class for ARs' approach

I think more have supported a 'not sling and coat but not as much an equipment arms race as f-class' approach.

'get the ARs in the closet out and shooting a match' comes up often. Nice idea, 223 only on the big target is optimal for that but the closet guns will NEVER be truly competitive with guns built for the class anyway.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I think this is very true but I don't see that you answered this before proposing specifics any more than anyone else.

Your idea seems to be 'allow AR based rifles to compete in f-class' but I could be wrong.

That is absolutely what NRA has always explicitly said it's NOT meant to be.

Some other people have supported more or less the 'f-class for ARs' approach

I think more have supported a 'not sling and coat but not as much an equipment arms race as f-class' approach.

'get the ARs in the closet out and shooting a match' comes up often. Nice idea, 223 only on the big target is optimal for that but the closet guns will NEVER be truly competitive with guns built for the class anyway.

The reason I did not propose any specifics to the initial question is simply because I was not the one who asked the question or decided to start down this path in the first place.

I know what the NRA said it doesn't want to be. However, they don't seem to know what they want it to be, and why.

Once we know what the goal is, then we can move forward.

And please, saying "we want more people to compete" is not a valid answer.

 

[Ned Ludd]

...And if it's important to make it easy for the newbies, we could just give them a juice box and a participation trophy at the end of the day...

Now, THIS ^^^ I could get on board with. I can picture it now...




Hey Denys, where's my juice box? Denys, can you check my trigger pull weight? I need a barrel length check too, while you're at it. Denys, what do you think about my scope mag setting - it's a 24X scope, but I visually turned the ring down to 15X...will that work ok? Denys? DENYS!!! Are you woolgathering? BTW - I still don't have that Juicy Juice yet, what's the holdup? Denys! DENYS!!!





IMO - If you're going to do this, pick the appropriate target first. If they insist on running the sling target, then this class should fall under the purview of the sling shooters. Otherwise, if it's really supposed to be a sub-discipline of F-Class, use an F-Class target center. Simple. Otherwise, some match directors may simply be put in a position that they will have to tell interested shooters that they don't offer the "Tactical Mid-Range (Prone) AR" division at this time, only F-TR and F-Open.

The rest of the stuff such as the very nebulous wording surrounding the required inclusion of a magazine in the rifle, but not its actual use in feeding rounds, the prohibition of a bobsled, etc., is all pretty simple stuff that the NRA Competition officials can easily fix if they have anyone that knows anything at all about F-Class/Conventional shooting competitions working on the Rule committees.

 

[sfinn1]

Gentlemen, let's not get carried away here. Remember the intent of the NRA in starting this discipline.
If the NRA would clarify the ammo, magazine and loading problem, that would help the match director.
I would Like to see the sled legalized.
Yes, you will see High Master scores. What I have seen are existing good highpower and F Class shooters competing for a change of pace. This last match, my new shooter competed with an AR 10 and ball ammo. he had a great time and will definitely be back. The new shooters are still exposed to that great learning curve. That's what this class is about. Let the High Master shooters fight it out with X's just as we do in F Open.
If you want to open this up with open rifles on F Class targets, by all means go shoot an F Class match, for that is what it would be.

Steve Finnell
Match Director
Mill Creek Rifle Club

 

[Monte F]

Tomorrow I will be shooting my R-25 in .243 during our last match of the year. I will be loading my magazine length ammo with my little finger over my 20 round magazine (no need for a sled). I will also be pulling a 4.5 lb. trigger whilst looking through my 12X Coyote Special scope. Still as much fun as shooting my F-TR rifle and about the same challenge to try and clean the target. We have a group of competitive shooters that are enjoying this class. Sunday will be for the F-TR at 1000 yds.

 

[DE-F-Open]

Steve & Monte F,

You guys have it right. This discipline is designed to be a "gateway" sport. Get'em to the range. Let them learn. Expose them to both sling and F-Class shooting and shooters. Let them see what others are doing and then decide for themselves whether to stay where they are with their AR's or make the transition to either F-Class or sling (or for those with lots of time and money, maybe both, or all three).

The concept is for the established F-Class and sling shooters to encourage and welcome these new AR shooters to the range and to teach the new AR shooters the basics by example and through the normal social interactions that always happen on ranges and at matches.

Steve and Monte F have it right... now all we need is for Match Directors and club-level High Power Directors to help grow this new discipline, either as a stand-alone discipline or as a "gateway" to the other two branches of the High Power sport.

Thanks guys,

John

 

[Medic505]

I can see the headlines now.

AR-15 Labeled As Gateway Drug

 

[kzin]

I can see the headlines now.

AR-15 Labeled As Gateway Drug

Gateway to what?
AR15 is the ultimate evil itself!

 

[kzin]

What about dropping the AR requirement and allowing all semiautos?

I'm allowing that locally and I think some other clubs are also.