Advise re .221 fireball (see Advise re .222 Remington rifle)

[mefizto]

Hi Evan,

thank you very much for the link to the fireball grass, that was my big worry.

I have also looked at the links to the bullets that several members recommended, but there are several types, - flat base, boat-tail, ballistic tip, hollow point. From what I read on the short distances, there is no difference between the flat base and hollow point, in fact the flat base appears to be preferred. That about the point for target shooting vs varmint extermination? Also, should I buy several different brands and weights? In other words where to start?

Kindest regards,

M

 

[JohnHenry]

Hi Evan,

thank you very much for the link to the fireball grass, that was my big worry.

I have also looked at the links to the bullets that several members recommended, but there are several types, - flat base, boat-tail, ballistic tip, hollow point. From what I read on the short distances, there is no difference between the flat base and hollow point, in fact the flat base appears to be preferred. That about the point for target shooting vs varmint extermination? Also, should I buy several different brands and weights? In other words where to start?

Kindest regards,

M

If your 52 gr. bullets are hollow points, not the typically longer polymer tipped variety, they should stabilize in a 1 in 14" twist. I have shot 52 gr. Berger and Watson match hollow points in my 14" twist Cooper fireball w/o any issues. I do feel the 221 case capacity is better suited for 40 gr. bullets. There are a number of good 221 powders, but I particularly like CFE BLK with 40 gr. bullets. I have had good results with the 40 gr. Nosler ballistic tips. 3500 fps is achievable with no high pressure issues. You may want to check out the Hodgdon reloading site.

 

[mefizto]

Hi JohnHenry,

yes, they are Sierra MatchKing HPBT.

Thank you for the powder reference, this is a new one, from my reading, the most popular are IMR4227, A-1680, Vint N-110, N-130, AA2230, H322, Lil'Gun, etc. Although choice is good, for a first-time reloaded, the options are confusing.

Of course, this is Internet, so everyone recommends something different, which makes sense if one accepts the proposition that each rifle is different. But, it does not make the decision with which to start any easier.

Similarly for bullets, though it seems that 40 gr Nosler and Hornady V Max or SX appear to be mostly used.

At least the primer - Remington 7.5 or 205, are consistently recommended.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Oso]

221 Fireball works with all the same powders that 222 and 223 use.

Flat based bullets form a better seal in the barrel and tend to stabilize easier (greater bearing surface). For 300 yards there is little to no advantage to having a boat tail. This streamlined taper comes into play for aerodynamics at longer distances.

 

[mefizto]

Hi Oso,

thank you for the confirmation of what my research indicates regarding the bullets.

As far as the powder is concerned, I played with them in QuickLoad software, and the Lil'Gun and VV N-110 appear to be both most ballisticaly efficient. The VV published data are within 1/10% from what the QuickLoad predicts. So, I may start with that one.

Now I need to find Redding Type S bushings for a reasonable price.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[JohnHenry]

Hi Oso,

thank you for the confirmation of what my research indicates regarding the bullets.

As far as the powder is concerned, I played with them in QuickLoad software, and the Lil'Gun and VV N-110 appear to be both most ballisticaly efficient. The VV published data are within 1/10% from what the QuickLoad predicts. So, I may start with that one.

Now I need to find Redding Type S bushings for a reasonable price.

Kindest regards,

M

Just one person's opinion, but I believe N110 is too fast a powder for the Fireball. The VV data I looked at does not include N110. Note their FB rifle data is for a 14" barrel if you compare it to other loading data. Be careful!
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/?cartridge=4

 

[Bruce W]

AA1680 and 40 gr nosler works well. I accually shot N110 and 40 gr Nosler with good results. Lapua brass

14 twist and 40 gr. bullet is a good combo.

 

[mefizto]

Hi JohnHenry,

thank you for catching my editorial error, it was N-120 that I looked at. The QuckLoad enables one to select a barrel length.

Hi Bruce_W,

I looked at that too. For the same performance with a 22 inch barrel, I need 1gr more of AA1680, and 84.5% of the powder is burned vs 95.4%, ballistic efficiency is 22.7 vs 26.2, and the pressure is rising faster.

I will get the 40 gr. Nosler.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Evan]

No reason not to try the 52gn SMK you have too. They may just shoot really well. They shot very very well in all my 14twist 22-250 barrels at a low 3600fps.

50gn Vmax have also always shot very well for me. A lot of my best groups were shot with vmax.

 

[pwdrbrn]

Looks like you received a lot of good advice. As an added note, I have used 50 vmax w/4198, shot great, but when I went to 40 vmax, it apparently didn't create enough pressure to burn completely and ended up with 1680. As for the 52 gr, they will probably be fine, just have to try them. Have fun with it! Tom .

 

[Bruce W]

surprisingly V133 , fed 205 and sierra 53 match kings . I think it was almost a case full of powder. Probably way slow for this caliber. It shot very nice groups from a xp pistol and 12 x Leupold

 

[mefizto]

Hi Evan,

of course, I will try then. What I currently understand based on my feverish reading is, that the twist is related to the length of the bullet and not the mass, which is often referred to. They are not the same. Since the bullets I have are shorter than the "spitzer" type bullets, I have high hopes.

Hi pwdrbrn,

indeed, I am pleasantly surprised by the patience and willingness of help.

For the relative studies based on the different bullet mass/length and different powders, the QickLoad is amazing.

Hi Bruce_W,

according to the software, a full case with the stated bullets develops 2510 ft/s in a 22 inch long barrel.

However, I would like to ask a different questions prompted by your post:

1. Is there a difference among the different primers? I have seen recommended Win 7.5 and Win 205.
2. How does one determine the charge to use? Does one use the maximum allowable pressure and leave a reserve of, e.g., 15-20%? Or does one look at external ballistics?

Let us say that one has two different aims - one, target at 150 yards, and two, critters at 225-250 yards. It would stand to reason, that different charges, bullets would be indicated.

Would it be better to post the question in the Reloading section?

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Evan]

Hi Evan,

However, I would like to ask a different questions prompted by your post:

1. Is there a difference among the different primers? I have seen recommended Win 7.5 and Win 205.
2. How does one determine the charge to use? Does one use the maximum allowable pressure and leave a reserve of, e.g., 15-20%? Or does one look at external ballistics?

Let us say that one has two different aims - one, target at 150 yards, and two, critters at 225-250 yards. It would stand to reason, that different charges, bullets would be indicated.

Would it be better to post the question in the Reloading section?

Kindest regards,

M

This question will probably get better responses here than in the reloading section.

1. It doesn't matter which primer you choose to start. Any of them will give good results, and you should stick to one until you have a compelling reason to change (like no bullet/powder combo is proving very accurate). The important thing if you change primers is to back down your charge a gn of powder or so because different primers will ignite differently and can take a near max pressure load that is still safe and turn it into a blowing the primer out the back of the case unsafe load.

2. Start low and work up. I've never found the best accuracy at high pressure; generally the best accuracy has always been a good way back from max charge weight. Another word of warning is that 0.1gn of powder is a much larger percentage of your case capacity than in a larger cartridge, so typically given advice of moving in 0.5gn or similar intervals during load development is not wise as you approach a maximum load in the tiny little 221.

For your 2 applications, one good bullet and load combination will probably serve both purposes very well. Varmint bullets like the Nosler BT and the Hornady Vmax frequently show stunning accuracy for paper punching in many rifles. They are forgiving designs that tune easily and shoot very well.

If you are using a slower powder like 4198, you may notice that it will be dirty and have modest accuracy at lower charges. You'll need to keep going until you get enough case-fill and pressure then it will stop carbon fouling the barrel so badly and accuracy will improve dramatically.

 

[mefizto]

Hi Even,

thank you, that is very reasonable answer.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[TAJ45]

Am I mistaken orrrr.... 7.5 is Rem and 205 are Fed?

 

[BEEZLY]

I have the rifle you speak of in 221 fb and the only complaint I have is I wish it had a magazine as I have big fingers and sometimes have a hard time loading it..... If you don't start the cartridge down into the well just right one side will tip down it can get frustrating...... Other than that it is an absolute joy to shoot and very accurate.... I run A 1680 and can get 3500 fps with a 40 grain bullet with no signs of pressure....

 

[mefizto]

Hi TAJ45,

no you are not mistaken, it was my error.

BTW, did you get my p.m.?

Hi BEEZLY,

it is my understanding that the rifles came with a blind magazine, am I mistaken? http://mpcsports.com/browseproducts/Remington-Model-700-Light-Varmint-Bolt-Action-Rifle.HTML

Kindest regards,

M

 

[sw282]

mef. l have the same gun and it has become my FAVOURITE rifle. As l got older l tired of carrying a 12 bl varmint rifle. 2018 l took it on lts first PD shoot. l ended up shooting it almost exclusively. My bullet was a 35gr jhp Berger and AA1680 pdr in Rem brass and 7 1/2 primer.. MY gun is good for 250yds+and accuracy is outstanding. l have made a couple changes to mine since buying it. A Shilen trigger was added along with a Pachmyer Decelerator pad. The original had turned to bubble gum. l had difficulty chambering/feeding ctgs thru it. l purchased a single shot follower to end that problem. Unfortunately the follower would not fit because the box magazine was too short.. lt just so happened l had a box magazine from a 223ADL that fit perfectly. l had some 60gr Hornady SP bullets and thought about trying them for deer when Doe Days come in.. Even with the slow 1-14 twist l was able to get consistent half inch groups @100yds.. Before l get a lot of NO's for hunting deer with a 221FB let me say that handgun hunters have been killing deer with their XP100s since the day it was introduced. l am primarily a handgun hunter anyway. The extra 12'' more barrel than the XP's 10 was a big bonus. There are even 70gr loads for the 221FB. THE most popular 22CF ctg was inspired by the 221FB. That's the 223/5.56 Rem. 221FB came out BEFORE the 223Rem. Fact is the 221 and 223 share the SAME shoulder angle and neck length. 22CM shares the same shoulder/neck angle specs. 0nly dimension they share with the 222Rem is the .378'' case dia.. The worst mistake you can ever make with a 221FB 700LVSF is sell it!

 

[mefizto]

Hi sw282,

thank you for your narrative regarding the rifle, it is very uplifting. I hope that mine will prove to be as good as yours.

You mentioned replacing the original trigger, what where the reasons? In that regards, is the original trigger single stage or two stage, the information I found is contradictory.

It is very encouraging that the barrel supports the 60gr bullets. If my understanding is correct, it is not the mass of the bullet, but the length, that determines the required twist.

Can you please qualify the magazine issue? My understanding is, that the magazine is blind, which implies fixed, non-removable. But you wrote that you replaced it with a different magazine.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[sw282]

Ok Mef--l prefer Shilen or Jewel triggers in Remington bolt guns. l had to remove the stock from the gun. The magazine box is attached to the action by a small Phillips screw just in front of the trigger. l swapped the 221fb magazine box for a 223 one in order to put the single shot follower in. Both 221 and 223 magazine boxes are the same size externally. The 221 box has an internal spacer for the shorter ctg.The magazine well in the stock will take either.. l got my 60gr reloading info/d

My load data for the 60gr JSP Hornadys came from Hornady's Manual, Third Edition.Copyright 1980.
The load data from 3dr Edition follows later Hornady Manuals pretty closely for lighter bullets. Just no 60gr data from Hornady in later manuals... Hornady said in the 3rd Edition that only the 60gr Soft Point would stabilize with 1=14 twist.. Their 60gr Hollow Point would not