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Understanding powder charges and pressure

So my primary load data comes from the Lyman 50th manual along with information i get out of the hornaday manual and what i can download from the powder manufacturers all cross checked in an effort to not blow my face off ;) What i am curious about is a gun/chamber is rated to a SAMI specification for pressure. In my Lyman manual there are different max powder charges all with different pressure generated during that max load. Why are all max loads at max pressure by SAMI specification. I understand that each powder has a different burn rate and profile but i think the listed pressure in manuals is peak pressure. The only thing i can think of is that they list a charge with a built in safety factor, that is a percentage of the powder load and not a percentage of pressure.
 
Burn rate should be called pressure curve. Faster powders generate peak pressure very quickly which is why they work with light bullets or shorter barrels (in rifles anyways) and the particular data may not show just how fast that curve is climbing. Maybe another couple tenths of a grain put that load well into max category. I test all my loads to my gears combined max, sometimes it's a ways over book, sometimes I see pressure signs under book max. Listed charges are a good place to start, generally.
 
I don't think the listed pressure in manuals is peak pressure but rather the authors "educated opinion" of safe max pressure but JMHO.
There are several variable factors that contribute to pressure besides just powder charges and characteristics.
Be safe
 
Burn rate should be called pressure curve. Faster powders generate peak pressure very quickly which is why they work with light bullets or shorter barrels (in rifles anyways) and the particular data may not show just how fast that curve is climbing. Maybe another couple tenths of a grain put that load well into max category. I test all my loads to my gears combined max, sometimes it's a ways over book, sometimes I see pressure signs under book max. Listed charges are a good place to start, generally.
When shooting pistol cartridges i have read and keep hearing if your seeing pressure signs then your way over. Currently working on 357 mag for both a lever gun and a pistol. I hope to never see flat primers....
 
Start low and work up max pressures are sometimes over max in some guns. I taught a friend how to reload and he loaded his first batch by himself in 270 win at book max and shoot from a Ruger 77. The primers looked twice the size as the unfired ones did. I took a bullet puller and broke one down and the powder charge was indeed at book max. If the book is any more than a starting point (and that should be well below max) for you, you need to rethink things.
 
When shooting pistol cartridges i have read and keep hearing if your seeing pressure signs then your way over. Currently working on 357 mag for both a lever gun and a pistol. I hope to never see flat primers....
Some manuals max loads are where others start with there +P loads, be careful,and to top it off 357 pistol loads are different from the rifle loads. Darn,I just confused myself.
 
When shooting pistol cartridges i have read and keep hearing if your seeing pressure signs then your way over. Currently working on 357 mag for both a lever gun and a pistol. I hope to never see flat primers....
To me you're correct but you can get flat primers in a revolver , my wife's Ruger LCR shows slightly flat primers and I assure you the loads are way under max because I load them for her to practice with because the little light pistol kicks pretty good.... There's many loads tried and true for most pistol calibers these days... My advice is to always shoot some factory ammo over a crono to get a baseline on speed with the gun you will be reloading for... For instance in my target loads for124gr 9mm I cut them back to about 980 fps and got them as high as 1199 both with win231 , I can only imagine the pressure was pretty high at 1199... So if I loaded them with a different powder I could get the speed without the pressure say using power pistol.... That's why most manuals list a variety of different powders per load.. Some powder can push a bullet faster but without the pressure , some powder like win231 is more for medium speeds...I use it because I can load a variety of pistol cartridges for target practice with it... Pick out what you want and start low and work up till you get what you want SAFELY....
 
To me you're correct but you can get flat primers in a revolver , my wife's Ruger LCR shows slightly flat primers and I assure you the loads are way under max because I load them for her to practice with because the little light pistol kicks pretty good.... There's many loads tried and true for most pistol calibers these days... My advice is to always shoot some factory ammo over a crono to get a baseline on speed with the gun you will be reloading for... For instance in my target loads for124gr 9mm I cut them back to about 980 fps and got them as high as 1199 both with win231 , I can only imagine the pressure was pretty high at 1199... So if I loaded them with a different powder I could get the speed without the pressure say using power pistol.... That's why most manuals list a variety of different powders per load.. Some powder can push a bullet faster but without the pressure , some powder like win231 is more for medium speeds...I use it because I can load a variety of pistol cartridges for target practice with it... Pick out what you want and start low and work up till you get what you want SAFELY....
I started with unique because i have a lot of experience shooting that powder and a little time with dad before he was gone reloading with it. My first loads were max 38 special at 5 grains. These were about the same as shooting 9mm and nothing in the 357. Then i changed cases and loaded 7 grains in a mag case. These were chosen because it was well below max and touted as a great target load. I also loaded 8 grains in a magnum case. The 8 grains were quite powerful and fun but the 7 was way more controllable. My main decision factor is the 8 was not as accurate in the pistol i was shooting so i will now be making some more at 6.7 7 and 7.3 to see what i like best. No reason to make small adjustments until you know where you want to be and 8 was not it.
Back to the original question why is the max load pressure for Unique so much lower than any of the "magnum powders" I understand they burn slower but the load for h110, MP-300 and others is almost twice as much. I don't know i have ever seen such huge changes in a rifle charge.
 
SAAMI MAX pressures for centerfire rifle cartridges can be found here:

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Pressures are listed in more than one format, with definitions listed in the opening pages. For example, the SAAMI MAX pressure for .308 Win in fairly common use is 62,000 psi and is indicated on page 43/375 as "MAP", or "Maximum Average Pressure". The reloading manuals I own do not list pressures, but rather use predicted velocities for the START Load and MAX Load with various powders.

The predicted velocities listed for these loads in reloading manuals are based on a specific barrel length (typically 24"), and cartridge overall length (COAL - typically short enough to fit in a standard magazine for a given cartridge). Presumably, none of the listed loads should greatly exceed SAAMI MAX pressure, at least in theory. However, variance in chamber dimensions, case wall thickness (i.e. different brands of brass), COAL, and powder Lot-to-Lot burn rate, can all lead to different results being obtained than what is listed in the manual. That is why the recommendation should always be to start low and work up a load safely, in small increments.

The differences in predicted velocities at MAX load with various powders represent the effects of different burn rates and gas expansion on muzzle velocity. For example, using a powder that has a relatively fast burn rate for a given caliber in a rifle with a relatively long barrel may sometimes mean the powder will essentially be completely burned long before the bullet ever leaves the muzzle. Relatively fast powders with heavy bullets can also generate early pressure spikes as compared with a slightly slower burning powder. In such a scenario, it is not uncommon for the faster burning powder to generate lesser muzzle velocity, even though the peak pressure may be much higher, than a slightly slower burning powder that continues to burn and produce gas expansion until after the bullet has exited the bore.

One way I have always found useful for thinking about powder burn rates and their effect on pressure and velocity is the concept of "acceleration". You can ramp up the pressure for a given weight bullet very quickly with a relatively fast burning powder (i.e. high acceleration), but if it all burns up before the bullet exits the bore, the muzzle velocity might not end up as fast as with a slightly slower-burning powder that has less initial acceleration, but which continues to burn and produce gas expansion until after the bullet exits the bore, and so ultimately generates higher muzzle velocity.

The bottom line is that different powders are expected to generate different muzzle velocities in a specific setup for a given bullet weight. This is normal behavior and the MAX loads reflected in the manuals for a given set of conditions should be for the highest expected velocity without going over MAX pressure. But to reiterate, there can sometimes be large differences between load parameters in different manuals. Because of the large number of independent variables involved, it is always best to start low and work up slowly.
 
SAAMI MAX pressures for centerfire rifle cartridges can be found here:

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Pressures are listed in more than one format, with definitions listed in the opening pages. For example, the SAAMI MAX pressure for .308 Win in fairly common use is 62,000 psi and is indicated on page 43/375 as "MAP", or "Maximum Average Pressure". The reloading manuals I own do not list pressures, but rather use predicted velocities for the START Load and MAX Load with various powders.

The predicted velocities listed for these loads in reloading manuals are based on a specific barrel length (typically 24"), and cartridge overall length (COAL - typically short enough to fit in a standard magazine for a given cartridge). Presumably, none of the listed loads should greatly exceed SAAMI MAX pressure, at least in theory. However, variance in chamber dimensions, case wall thickness (i.e. different brands of brass), COAL, and powder Lot-to-Lot burn rate, can all lead to different results being obtained than what is listed in the manual. That is why the recommendation should always be to start low and work up a load safely, in small increments.

The differences in predicted velocities at MAX load with various powders represent the effects of different burn rates and gas expansion on muzzle velocity. For example, using a powder that has a relatively fast burn rate for a given caliber in a rifle with a relatively long barrel may sometimes mean the powder will essentially be completely burned long before the bullet ever leaves the muzzle. Relatively fast powders with heavy bullets can also generate early pressure spikes as compared with a slightly slower burning powder. In such a scenario, it is not uncommon for the faster burning powder to generate lesser muzzle velocity, even though the peak pressure may be much higher, than a slightly slower burning powder that continues to burn and produce gas expansion until after the bullet has exited the bore.

One way I have always found useful for thinking about powder burn rates and their effect on pressure and velocity is the concept of "acceleration". You can ramp up the pressure for a given weight bullet very quickly with a relatively fast burning powder (i.e. high acceleration), but if it all burns up before the bullet exits the bore, the muzzle velocity might not end up as fast as with a slightly slower-burning powder that has less initial acceleration, but which continues to burn and produce gas expansion until after the bullet exits the bore, and so ultimately generates higher muzzle velocity.

The bottom line is that different powders are expected to generate different muzzle velocities in a specific setup for a given bullet weight. This is normal behavior and the MAX loads reflected in the manuals for a given set of conditions should be for the highest expected velocity without going over MAX pressure. But to reiterate, there can sometimes be large differences between load parameters in different manuals. Because of the large number of independent variables involved, it is always best to start low and work up slowly.

Thank you for this. I have decided against going to a slower powder for this one pistol because the barrel is so short like 3". I for now i think the faster powder is better due to burn in a short barrel as you described. This was loads for testing and learning as i had not loaded 38 or 357 before and i want to experience as many loads and calibers as possible to increase my knowledge. In a rifle the magnum powders i believe will provide huge benefits and may do a lot better in longer pistols like 6 inches. I tried to figure out before loading what would be the best powder based on barrel length and i feel the Unique is a good fit for the short barrels. When i go rifle i plan on testing the Unique loads the same way and then something like the 300 mp. I enjoy the learning and testing part of this almost more than the shooting. Its a problem solving game and i enjoy that a lot. Thank you for the help....
 
Thank you for this. I have decided against going to a slower powder for this one pistol because the barrel is so short like 3". I for now i think the faster powder is better due to burn in a short barrel as you described. This was loads for testing and learning as i had not loaded 38 or 357 before and i want to experience as many loads and calibers as possible to increase my knowledge. In a rifle the magnum powders i believe will provide huge benefits and may do a lot better in longer pistols like 6 inches. I tried to figure out before loading what would be the best powder based on barrel length and i feel the Unique is a good fit for the short barrels. When i go rifle i plan on testing the Unique loads the same way and then something like the 300 mp. I enjoy the learning and testing part of this almost more than the shooting. Its a problem solving game and i enjoy that a lot. Thank you for the help....

FWIW - SAAMI also has max pressure data for pistol and rimfire cartridges at the same website. Bottom line is that there can often be a range of powder burn rates that might potentially work for a given cartridge, barrel length, and bullet weight. It is not uncommon for pressure/velocity with different powders, even those within a seemingly fairly narrow burn rate range, to differ markedly for a tuned load. So the actual results can differ markedly from the theoretical results, and you simply have to test and optimize loads with each powder you wish to try out. Otherwise, it may well be like comparing apples to oranges. In my hands when testing different powders, there are usually one or two that stand out, and I tend to stick with those for further development.
 
You will find a load that's not max far more comfortable and with less wear on the gun.... The paper doesn't know it's not screaming fast.... The load I use goes between 3.8-4.4 I load at 4.2 which gives me some room if there's a small mistake either up or down... There by no meens hot or even close but a tenth plus or minus meens nothing.... Even in rifle a screaming hot load will normally not be an accurate one.... I wish I could remember what I loaded my .357 with years ago it was one of the shotgun powders like blue dot or green dot... It's been way to long.... Don't be scared to try different things , sometimes you find a winning combo..... Just be safe about it....
 
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