Induction brass annealer redux

[SGK]

There is a new 1800 watts board on the market. What would be a suitable Power Supply with adjustable voltage/power?
The current 1000 watts board works continuously only at 500 watts with 750 watt Mean Well Power Supply. Trying to anneal bigger brass.

The brass in the coil is the load. There will be a maximum that combination will draw. If this is inside the current capability of the induction board and its supply increasing them won't make an ounce of difference.

 

[oliverpsmile]

Reavid101

I've annealed successfully 260 Rem (a total of around 500 cases) in different batches (52 volts, ~13 amps, ~ 5 sec). Very recently the board "refused" to deliver power for the same cartridge. New board, worked well then again - "low power" I am now on the third board (1000 watts), that came with an instruction - recommended continuous usage at 50% (500 watts) - to be installed. Granted, I realize that I did not provide direct air flow to the unit (two general fans, 5 " away from the board) or heat sinks under the board, but my constant touch of the board's components during annealing did not register more than 100 - 120 degrees (the capacitors are really cooler (90-100 degrees)). No smells, no burning on the failed boards. Tried to re-solder some pins with no results.

So, my conclusion was that the boards were very capricious animals with strict "requirements" for lesser demand and that's why I am curious about the new 1800 watts boards. Or may be using these boards is kind of "Russian Roulette" - hit and miss - I wonder how most of the boards presented in this forum work with auto feeders. My auto cycles (PLC controlled) are more than 10 seconds (5 seconds On, 5-6 seconds Off)

 

[David101]

The boards are a piece of shit as far as quality is concerned. The circuit is not the problem. The boards are also very hard to work with, with pad sizes on one side too small for the big copper pad on the other. Also the pad and hole size for the 10Kohm resistor and the zener diode are way too small, replace the zener with a 1N5349 and even upgrade D3 and D4 to FR607 and it stops a lot of failures due to these components. The traces are also a cause of the heat esp where they make contact with the standoffs.

I would also say yes a lot of the boards are a bit of Russian Roulette I have purchase 4 boards all came with manufacturing faults cold solder joints or components like the torids just hanging loose. All due to the pad, trace design which makes soldering properly hard.

The upgrade to the larger wattage boards may solve some of the issues but the core manufacturing quality is going to be the same and really needs going over very carefully looking for problems before use. The BIG issue with the board is that a small fault results in a BIG failure.

Lots of good information on this site https://www.spaco.org/Blacksmithing/ZVSInductionHeater/1000WattZVSInductionHeaterNotes.htm including a trouble shooting guide. His idea of testing the board with the big original work coil on a 12 V current limited power supply before connecting it for real is a good idea.

 

[SGK]

It would only take an hour or two to lay out a board in Cadsoft Eagle

 

[oliverpsmile]

Thanks David101 and SGK

It's obvious that the boards will eat into our favorite shooting and reloading time.
The idea of a board layout is marvelous and I hope someday we will see it, for the benefit of all. Gina and Erik planted the bug. It ain't the cost anymore, it is the challenge.

 

[David101]

The biggest challenge for me anyway has been the cabinetry and mechanical parts of the build, certainly the most time consuming. The second part has been the testing tuning and playing around trying different stuff which has lead to some failures.

 

[David101]

I dont understand why this thread is not a sticky. There are so many recent threads regarding annealing and these machines are not up the front as an option.
Anyway I finally nearly finished my Annealers there seems to always be some room for improvement once you have tried a few different options. I have made two machines one using a ferrite which really concentrates the flux and the other the copper work coil type. I started with the original design with the same 1 1/8 using 1/8 copper 8 turns and then tried a 7 turn 4mm copper coil which gave a much better water flow and heated about the same and same Frequency. The Frequency was about 100 Khz and gave the 8.6 A no brass in coil result and with a 308 case 10.9 A and it took about 8.4 seconds this heated too much of the case so I added 4 extra capacitors this reduced the frequency to about 80 Khz it brought up the idle current to 10.8A and with a 308 case to 14-15A and the time down to 4.8 seconds with a much better concentration of heat.
I initially built this unit with an SSR as well but for some reason even before I added the extra capacitors after a few anneals the SSR burnt out and stuck on. I did have a diode to ground but I dont think I had the negative rail of the 48V to ground which I really should have. I may give this another try when I get some new parts in.

With the Ferrite unit I actually turned down the voltage as far as I could on the 48V supply to 41V to extend the annealing times. The no case in the field current is 3.3 A and with a 308 case in the field is about 8A and anneals in 3.2 seconds it operates at about the 100kHz as well. It will do a 223 in about 1.2 seconds.

The ferite machine would actually end up cheaper to make is lighter and smaller but the duty cycle may not be the same not sure how long you could run it. It allows for the use of a smaller rated power supply no water cooling ect.

Lots of stuff to add. I have learnt heaps making these machines now just hope it helps the scores.

 

[Gina1]

I dont understand why this thread is not a sticky. There are so many recent threads regarding annealing and these machines are not up the front as an option.
Anyway I finally nearly finished my Annealers there seems to always be some room for improvement once you have tried a few different options. I have made two machines one using a ferrite which really concentrates the flux and the other the copper work coil type. I started with the original design with the same 1 1/8 using 1/8 copper 8 turns and then tried a 7 turn 4mm copper coil which gave a much better water flow and heated about the same and same Frequency. The Frequency was about 100 Khz and gave the 8.6 A no brass in coil result and with a 308 case 10.9 A and it took about 8.4 seconds this heated too much of the case so I added 4 extra capacitors this reduced the frequency to about 80 Khz it brought up the idle current to 10.8A and with a 308 case to 14-15A and the time down to 4.8 seconds with a much better concentration of heat.
I initially built this unit with an SSR as well but for some reason even before I added the extra capacitors after a few anneals the SSR burnt out and stuck on. I did have a diode to ground but I dont think I had the negative rail of the 48V to ground which I really should have. I may give this another try when I get some new parts in.

With the Ferrite unit I actually turned down the voltage as far as I could on the 48V supply to 41V to extend the annealing times. The no case in the field current is 3.3 A and with a 308 case in the field is about 8A and anneals in 3.2 seconds it operates at about the 100kHz as well. It will do a 223 in about 1.2 seconds.

The ferite machine would actually end up cheaper to make is lighter and smaller but the duty cycle may not be the same not sure how long you could run it. It allows for the use of a smaller rated power supply no water cooling ect.

Lots of stuff to add. I have learnt heaps making these machines now just hope it helps the scores.

Nice work David. The GinaErick is every bodies build. With all the pages of this post, everyone has added an improvement or a different design. Your doing your part and thank you for passing it on.

Gina

 

[ferretonthelus]

Hi Gina,
My first post here. I read about 20 pages of all the comments and so on. I was hooked on the first page. To your memory, has anyone used an Direct Logic F1-130 PLC? Or any other PLC’s to that end? I love this thing you have created! Thanks for everything. I’ll have to go read more after my eyes quit burning.

 

[Gina1]

Hi Gina,
My first post here. I read about 20 pages of all the comments and so on. I was hooked on the first page. To your memory, has anyone used an Direct Logic F1-130 PLC? Or any other PLC’s to that end? I love this thing you have created! Thanks for everything. I’ll have to go read more after my eyes quit burning.

I'm an old time engineer, relays, coils, resistors, capacitors.. Heck I even remember "tubes". As far as a PLC, I'll leave that to you young whipper snappers.
On another note, Thank you for you comments. If you build, good luck on it
Gina

 

[hambone1971]

Nice job David, thanks for your contributions to the effort. HB

 

[ferretonthelus]

I'm an old time engineer, relays, coils, resistors, capacitors.. Heck I even remember "tubes". As far as a PLC, I'll leave that to you young whipper snappers.
On another note, Thank you for you comments. If you build, good luck on it
Gina

Hey Gina, actually I started out learning tubes myself. I just kept on moving and learning as I went. But when I’m done i’ll Post it. I have no idea what I will end up with. Again, thank you for the inspiration.

 

[oliverpsmile]

Hi Gina,
My first post here. I read about 20 pages of all the comments and so on. I was hooked on the first page. To your memory, has anyone used an Direct Logic F1-130 PLC? Or any other PLC’s to that end? I love this thing you have created! Thanks for everything. I’ll have to go read more after my eyes quit burning.

Sequence, timing and control with PLC (OEM vesion)

https://www.factorymation.com/SG2_PLR_Smart_Relay

 

[oliverpsmile]

Re: David101

Great idea about the Ferrit - please give us more details - dimensions suppliers etc.

 

[270guy]

Ok, so I have been committed to building one of these for a while. And now I'm really committed, have ordered most of the main parts. I do have a question about which relay to get (anyone from NZ / AUS, did you get one locally?)....which one to get?
This will lead to a lot of questions, I'm electronically challenged. And hope that I don't have any curly trouble shooting with the induction unit. Can I test it, with a 12 v battery when it arrives, to see that it is indeed ok? Or will I need the power source that is listed in the original parts list? And the last question for this morning, how much travel does the solenoid need ? 10 mm, 15 mm, 20 mm (sorry I'm not good with fractions either)?
Thanks to all, in advance.

 

[David101]

Im in Aus and I purchased all my parts either off ebay or aliexpress all from China power supplies included much faster and cheaper from Aliexpress. I used a 10mm solenoid and found the paddle arrangement much better than the straight pull. The parts were mostly as have been shown or described in the previous pages. Dont try to power the board from a 12V battery more chance of blowing it up than testing it to test it use the coil that come with the unit much less current draw.

 

[270guy]

Im in Aus and I purchased all my parts either off ebay or aliexpress all from China power supplies included much faster and cheaper from Aliexpress. I used a 10mm solenoid and found the paddle arrangement much better than the straight pull. The parts were mostly as have been shown or described in the previous pages. Dont try to power the board from a 12V battery more chance of blowing it up than testing it to test it use the coil that come with the unit much less current draw.

thanks. More questions coming, once parts star arriving.

 

[Brucey Boy]

Ok, so I have been committed to building one of these for a while. And now I'm really committed, have ordered most of the main parts. I do have a question about which relay to get (anyone from NZ / AUS, did you get one locally?)....which one to get?
This will lead to a lot of questions, I'm electronically challenged. And hope that I don't have any curly trouble shooting with the induction unit. Can I test it, with a 12 v battery when it arrives, to see that it is indeed ok? Or will I need the power source that is listed in the original parts list? And the last question for this morning, how much travel does the solenoid need ? 10 mm, 15 mm, 20 mm (sorry I'm not good with fractions either)?
Thanks to all, in advance.

I am in Aust too. You can bet that everything will work when it arrives. As David said, don't test it with 12v. Nothing to gain there but heartache. It need full voltage to function correctly. All my parts were generally from China via EBay, but Jaycar are good for a lot of your sundry requirements. One thing for sure, use good grade wire particularly for the 48v circuit. You can get away with lesser grade for all the 12v stuff. If you go back in this thread a few pages (Page 75 about half way down) you will see a picture I posted of the very reliable relay from Jaycar that I used along with a link to the item on their website. There are a couple of other relays on the same page (75) that you can look at too, so you are spoiled for choice. Over 4,000 cases through mine so far with no problem. I did have a SSR but like quite a few others have posted, it lasted but a few minutes under load, and then lots of smoke and that burning smell. Any help you need is right here on the forum. Good luck.

 

[McHaggis]

I’m in Southland and got this one from eBay. Slow shipping but it’s working fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/220VAC-240...073945?hash=item3f37152b99:g:H7AAAOxy~g5RpANM

 

[David101]

Thats funny the sellers name is world wide wait.

I used these components

https://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/0.html?orderId=98648352809447&productId=32819124703


https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JQX-12F...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-2A-...var=690328254240&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LED-Dri...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-0-10...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Profess...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649