Barrel tuners. Good or a waste of time?

[Bindi2]

Question. How can there be seating into the lands by 10,15 20 thou when one to three thousands neck tension is used. I look at how a bullet seater works and see the same thing at play with the bolt to barrel fit.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Question. How can there be seating into the lands by 10,15 20 thou when one to three thousands neck tension is used. I look at how a bullet seater works and see the same thing at play with the bolt to barrel fit.

if it didn't work that way the group size wouldn't change with seating depth

 

[seymour fish]

My 30 years of experience in benchrest have been limited to short-range (100 & 200 yd) group shooting. When I make a statement about something I try to remind others of this. I also try to remember to say, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when I can't absolutely prove something.

Regarding my advice on seating depth, you asked, "Does this apply to all calibers and ranges?" No, probably not but if I was to begin experimenting with a new-to-me cartridge and bullet, 'Just off the lands" is where I would begin. There are several advantages to this; for one, there is no concern about extracting a loaded round if an 'emergency cease fire' is called.

I built my 100 yard tunnel fifteen years ago and I've done a lot of shooting out there. One thing I've learned that stands out above all else is seating depth; both how to do it and learning what works and what doesn't. Again, keep in mind that I'm a short-range group shooter, but it has been my experience that when I start at hard 'jam', and gradually increase the length of the seater stem in .005 increments, the horizontal abruptly disappears around .015 to .020 off of 'jam.' Continuing to push bullets back, again in .005 increments, to as much as .040 off jam appears to have no affect on horizontal.

Hope this helps someone.

Gene, do you get a sense that by doing so you have a bit less sharp recoil, or less tendency for the rifle to torque in the front rest ? Would you expect less amplitude in the initial pressure spike ?

 

[seymour fish]

My thoughts on frequency is how can a cartridge chambered in a #3 sporter and also in a 1.250 straight barrel have the same accuracy node spacing with powder charge/velocity? The frequency has to be very different in those 2 but the node spacing is not affected? I just dont think frequency is effecting what we are doing. But maybe Im looking at it all wrong? Im not talking about tuners here. Im just talking vibrations in general.

Alex, That suggests there exist happy barrel times. Slight incremental changes in powder charge and seating depth perhaps hold close to that ideal number while placing exit at the desirable upswing to achieve positive compensation at distance. It might follow that a tuner provides thinner slices of tunability re: positive compensation with no change in barrel time, thus an advantage. It begs The question whether a crafty shooter might change the shape of his group to better handle a predominate crosswind or head/tailwind. Seymour

 

[Bindi2]

if it didn't work that way the group size wouldn't change with seating depth

Don't you think the projectile would be getting push further into the case changing the air space in the case therefore changing the pressure curve.

 

[Terry]

With my loading press or tuner

Now that we covered the mechanics, what changes do you make given a specific change in weather conditions?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Don't you think the projectile would be getting push further into the case changing the air space in the case therefore changing the pressure curve.

We’re talking about different jam lengths giving different results. If a .025 and .035 jam pushed the bullet back to the same point there wouldnt be a difference in the target which there is so we know thats a falsehood

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Now that we covered the mechanics, what changes do you make given a specific change in weather conditions?

Your specific barrel will need different changes about every 5deg- some with seating depth some with powder change. You can also fine tune to a point with a tuner at the line

 

[Terry]

Your specific barrel will need different changes about every 5deg- some with seating depth some with powder change. You can also fine tune to a point with a tuner at the line

Is anyone else doing this?

 

[mikeeg02]

Is anyone else doing this?

Anyone who wants to be considered in good standings in the aggs.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Is anyone else doing this?

Everybody i see does. I didnt invent it. Gotta stay on top of the load. It sucks shooting all weekend with a load that doesnt shoot. One halfazzed tuned target and youre mid pack

 

[Terry]

Everybody i see does. I didnt invent it. Gotta stay on top of the load. It sucks shooting all weekend with a load that doesnt shoot. One halfazzed tuned target and youre mid pack

I know one guy shooting long range that does this.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I know one guy shooting long range that does this.

What, shoots a load that has ran out of tune? Theres a bunch of socializers at most matches.

 

[Terry]

What, shoots a load that has ran out of tune? Theres a bunch of socializers at most matches.

Really?

You no better.

I know one guy who adjust his loads on the fly.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I don't have a vast amount of experience.
That said i have a few years under my belt. lots of middle of the pack finishes and a few better ones
Finally learning not to accept the mid pack tune and change something
It's good to know where it wants to shoot a place closer in the lands and the place around touch. On the day when ones not working the other may

I think most of the field practice some before a match decide what they want to shoot. Shoot that seating depth regardless of what it's doing and you're in the middle if the pack or lower

 

[jimmymac]

The problem is trying to figure out which way and when to make a move on powder or seating depth, especially if you don't have the ear of someone who is already in the know who can provide help in real time as the conditions change. It's a really big learning curve to get from mid pack to top of the score sheet. Nobody gets to the top of the game living in a bubble. The other thing...It seemed to me that only a small percentage of guys really had a handle on this stuff. It's the same guys who show up week in and week out in the top ten or 15. I believe they know what's going on and how to stay there and the rest of us are making semi-educated guesses.

I've burned up a barrel and a good chunk of two others and I'm not even remotely close to getting things figured out. To some that may not seem like much, but it's a lot of shots and a lot of thoughts trying to unlock the secrets. It's a lot of work to get better. Maybe this year!

 

[mikeeg02]

The other thing...It seemed to me that only a small percentage of guys really had a handle on this stuff. It's the same guys who show up week in and week out in the top ten or 15. I believe they know what's going on and how to stay there and the rest of us are making semi-educated guesses.

I've burned up a barrel and a good chunk of two others and I'm not even remotely close to getting things figured out. To some that may not seem like much, but it's a lot of shots and a lot of thoughts trying to unlock the secrets. It's a lot of work to get better. Maybe this year!

Those are the guys to befriend and try and talk with get to know them. And they may not outright tell you everything. But I'm sure they will answer questions, and give a little guidance. And then once they tell you, you must test test test. What works for them may be a little off from how it works for you. It's a journey.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

20 pages, and this is where we are.

 

[Greyfox]

Something to consider that sometimes gets overlooked. Most of the folks who read this forum do not have rifles that are extremely accurate such as those shot in short range benchrest competition. Also, an even smaller number use wind flags habitually. Most don't even own them. Add to that those who shoot 600-1000 yards where wind flags similar to short range are not practical. Reading this thread I sometimes wonder if other readers are somehow expecting their rifles to magically begin to produce one hole groups @ 100-200 yards or that 1000 yard shooters are expecting 1/4 MOA groups. I think the tendency is to do something different and experience a small group, then think you have discovered the holy grail. Tuners do work well and can short cut some of the processes. But I personally know some of the posters on this thread and even though they know how to tune with powder, seating and tuners they still don't win every time they compete. To be where we all wish to be requires an accurate rifle, superior optics, a well tuned load, perfect bench manners and after all that...…..you still have to read the wind and the light.

There is another active thread about barrel cleaning. We would do well to read it. Sometimes we convince ourselves that some small thing we've done like clean the primer pockets or take that extra .0001 off the neck when turning, is the reason we just shot that .1 group. The more likely reason is that the wind between 75 and 85 yards gusted another 2 mph and blew the last two in the group. There is no substitute for practice and wind reading skills. Without them all the mechanical advantages in the world won't get you the fake wood. And the old guy using a rear bag that looks like a half filled sock will still kick your ass because he knows what the wind is telling him.....and he's watching the flags that belong to the guy next to him because he's gotten tired of placing flags for himself.

This is a great thread and there is a lot to learn here. But to win you still have to read the wind. There isn't a tuner for that.

Rick

 

[jimmymac]

Good post Rick. That pretty much sizes it up!

edit...

...and to take it a step further, the 2nd place guy is no more than the first loser.