Annealing Machines in Late 2018

[powderbrake]

I am a fan of the Annie annealer, I built my set-up based on the Annie unit. see http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-annealer-built-around-annie.3914150/

I believe the easiest way to use the Annie was developed by another person on this forum,(normmatzen). see post #43 on page 3 of the link. The annie has all the timer functions that are needed for this approach, with a piece of glass rod and a board to mount it all on, it is the lowest cost, simplest, most repeatable version I can imagine.

 

[JimSC]

I have been annealing every firing for over a year now but those days are over for me. I am probably gonna get flamed from heck and back for this but if I had it to do over again I would not waste a dime on any annealing machine. Not a popular opinion I know but that is ok
I am not a metallurgist but from what I have read cold working affects the brass at the molecular level while the modulus of elasticity which would affect neck tension occurs at the atomic level

some reading I did that formed my opinion -

https://store.appliedballisticsllc.com/Modern_Advancements_in_Long_Range_Shooting_V_II_p/0008.htm

https://www.uni-ulm.de/fileadmin/website_uni_ulm/uzwr/mmsm/mmsm1-ws1314/mmsm1-handout-plasticity.pdf

https://www.thestructuralmadness.com/2014/02/ductility-and-elasticity.html

https://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookCHEM1.html

http://www.virginia.edu/bohr/mse209/chapter6.htm

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-ductility-and-elasticity


The other reason I am skeptical at best on any benefit from annealing has to do with the lack of testing at the actual firing line. I can find dozens of lab tests that show how annealing realigns the crystalline structure of the brass but try and find one showing firing line testing where the velocity SD & ES or durability of the brass changes or in any way over the course of ten or twenty reloadings. The only actual firing line test I can find is a limited one by Bryan Litz in his Modern Advancements Vol II where he found no changes in performance after ten firings whether the brass was annealed every firing or never annealed.

I have my asbestos boxers on so feel free to flame away. However if you want to persuade me find me some real word testing where velocity SD's or brass life was affected in any way by annealing or lack thereof. Pretty pictures of cases cut in half and microscopic pics of brass crystals are all well and good but that tells me nothing about real world performance. I want to see some tests performed with a machine rest and documented by a reputable lab or a world class shooter who is willing to stake his rep on the results

When thinking about this you might consider that precision shooting with long brass life was happening long before anyone ever annealed a case at home. Some damn small groups were shot and brass was reloaded well past ten reloads prior to this century

 

[nmkid]

I went with Mike's also. Had it about 2 years, no problems. However, if you stack the feeder all the way to the top with large cases, sometimes the cases will lodge together and fail to feed. Not really a problem as I have only stacked them that high messing around. I like to sit there and watch it work so, I only load about 15-25 cases at a time.

 

[Laurie]

The only actual firing line test I can find is a limited one by Bryan Litz in his Modern Advancements Vol II where he found no changes in performance after ten firings whether the brass was annealed every firing or never annealed.

I also found this section very interesting and it's a challenge to 'orthodox views'. It is limited as Applied Ballistics only got hold of an AMP shortly before the book went to press, so maybe Vol III whenever it appears will enlarge the tests / findings.

I increasingly see annealing as being more about usable case life than consistency / precision, at least in the first few firings / loadings but that's totally at odds with general views on the subject. It's something worth keeping an eye - and open mind - on IMHO until we get more impartial studies of how the process affects real precision and case life.

In the meantime, those interested on salt bath annealing might find it worth reading:

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=2882

.......... and also the warning note by a professional user in post #3 by jmc67 here:

https://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=34808

 

[AJC]

I also found this section very interesting and it's a challenge to 'orthodox views'. It is limited as Applied Ballistics only got hold of an AMP shortly before the book went to press, so maybe Vol III whenever it appears will enlarge the tests / findings.

I increasingly see annealing as being more about usable case life than consistency / precision, at least in the first few firings / loadings but that's totally at odds with general views on the subject. It's something worth keeping an eye - and open mind - on IMHO until we get more impartial studies of how the process affects real precision and case life.

In the meantime, those interested on salt bath annealing might find it worth reading:

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=2882

.......... and also the warning note by a professional user in post #3 by jmc67 here:

https://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=34808

I like the open minded approach as you have stated. I am coming into a handed down machine, and i fully intend on testing on my own, to see if i get better case life or better performance. I keep seeing debates on how hot the operation needs to be so i believe the "FACTS" are far from resolved. I will not dispute that there are benefits to the process, what all the benefits vise claims will be very interesting to watch play out.

 

[JimSC]

I have considered salts, hot sand, ceramic media etc and if there is ever any definitive proof that annealing is worth it I may do some experimentation or more likely I will just buy an AMP. If annealing has any benefit at all that would probably be the road I would take. However I seriously doubt there ever will be anything other than pretty pictures of brass under a microscope which tells me nothing about how it affects the real world performance. If there was evidence that annealing actually improved velocity consistency some enterprising annealing machine manufacturer would have sponsored a real world test along the line of Litze's and published it all over the internet.

Instead we get pictures of split cases showing how annealing recrystallizes the brass which is all well and good for case life but I am skeptical on the elasticity claims. Real world evidence that there was indeed long case life and .1 groups that outdate home annealing further convinces me that it is probably does little to nothing to increase accuracy

 

[AJC]

I have considered salts, hot sand, ceramic media etc and if there is ever any definitive proof that annealing is worth it I may do some experimentation or more likely I will just buy an AMP. If annealing has any benefit at all that would probably be the road I would take. However I seriously doubt there ever will be anything other than pretty pictures of brass under a microscope which tells me nothing about how it affects the real world performance. If there was evidence that annealing actually improved velocity consistency some enterprising annealing machine manufacturer would have sponsored a real world test along the line of Litze's and published it all over the internet.

Instead we get pictures of split cases showing how annealing recrystallizes the brass which is all well and good for case life but I am skeptical on the elasticity claims. Real world evidence that there was indeed long case life and .1 groups that outdate home annealing further convinces me that it is probably does little to nothing to increase accuracy

I think the best your really going to get is some range testing by someone you trust. The data sets and amount of testing required by good science to prove in fact, that the process does x y and z is to costly for the little side companies and total profit of this endeavor. One does have to consider profit margins and the cost benefit analysis. Even if a big player would step to the table in an already small market, would they increase sales by a large enough amount to make it worth while. From strictly a business standpoint i think you may never see the "proof" your looking for. On the other hand you may find some dedicated shooter who wants to share the wealth and do testing that is worth your consideration.

 

[dcali]

I think there’s an argument to be made that light neck tension combined with hard necks is a good solution. Done properly, you can keep the neck from yielding, which should provide for very consistent bullet grip.

Practically speaking, I’ve not found that I have a problem that annealing is supposed to solve. So I don’t.

 

[rwj]

Annealing is like other parameters of hand loading... we each decide what is/isn’t worthwhile. Learning via reading and information exchanges is a good place to start... proof is obtained on the firing line.

 

[MN50Shooter]

How long do you leave your 6ppc cases in the bath?

I have never annealed a 6ppc case. I run my salt bath at 560 C and anneal neck turned 50 BMG brass (.0195") for 13 seconds. I anneal my .243, 25/06 & 30/06 (non neck turned) for 7 seconds. So far, I'm getting excellent results with this process, on all of the listed cases.

 

[JimSC]

I think the best your really going to get is some range testing by someone you trust. The data sets and amount of testing required by good science to prove in fact, that the process does x y and z is to costly for the little side companies and total profit of this endeavor. One does have to consider profit margins and the cost benefit analysis. Even if a big player would step to the table in an already small market, would they increase sales by a large enough amount to make it worth while. From strictly a business standpoint i think you may never see the "proof" your looking for. On the other hand you may find some dedicated shooter who wants to share the wealth and do testing that is worth your consideration.

I think I have found all the proof I need. Neck tension is determined by the modulus of elasticity of a material. The Material Properties Database for yellow brass is 110 GPa. Click on 3/4 hard, Annealed, Full Hard, or Spring Brass and the modulus of elasticity is always 110 GPa. Annealing affects a material at the molecular level, not the atomic level which determines the modulus of elasticity and therefore neck tension.

Then like I keep pointing out benchrest shooters have been shooting .1 groups since the 70's and cases were reloaded 10 and 20 times long before home annealing was ever thought of

links :
- elasticity of metal - http://www.virginia.edu/bohr/mse209/chapter6.htm
- physical properties of yellow brass - https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/UNS-C26800-CW506L-Yellow-Brass - click on various types and you will see they all have the same elasticity
- Gale McMillon's 1973 record - http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/gale-mcmillan/

As far as the cost goes AMP has spent many thousands of dollars having independent labs do testing and give us pretty pictures of cases split in two. I would think that they might spend a few NZ dollars to get a real world test on velocity consistency which any shooter could do with a Labradar, a pound of powder and 200 bullets.

Sorry to attack this sacred cow but my opinion as of this morning is home annealing of cases nothing more than snake oil and smoke and mirrors. I can see where in case manufacturing where they take a slug of brass and work it into a case some molecular restructuring of the brass is necessary to relieve the stress but even factory annealing does not change the modulus of elasticity of the brass

edit - the resilience (spring back) of a material is affected by annealing and annealing may have some affect on the life of the brass but field testing by Litz showed no more deterioration with non annealed versus annealed after ten firings. I have some .308 that had well in excess of 20 reloadings and never saw a annealing machine and never split a neck

 

[dcali]

I wouldn’t call it snake oil. But there’s more than one way to skin a cat. It’s correct that annealing does not change the elastic modulus (the springiness of the brass). But it does change how far you can move that brass before it won’t spring back all the way - the yield point.

When you seat a bullet in a case with heavy neck tension or soft brass you will yield the neck. Only with hardened brass and very light neck tension can you avoid this. So if you are yielding, you want the yield point to be the same for every case. AMP has data that annealing can improve this consistency.

It would not surprise me if typical annealing practices (torches) do not improve consistency in the yield point over not annealing, and may even make it worse. But I have no evidence of that.

If you don’t yield the neck while seating annealing does nothing but extend brass life by preventing split necks.

As to whether or not this has an impact on accuracy or velocity consistency, I have not noticed that it does significantly, if at all. I know that long range benchrest guys seem to think it does, and I won’t call them liars. But for me, the whole mess is avoidable by running light neck tension and never annealing.

I shoot 600 yard F TR, so take that as context.

 

[AJC]

I shoot 600 yard F TR, so take that as context.

This should be in the name section so everyone has a content, for how or why people answer the way they do.

 

[JimSC]

It’s correct that annealing does not change the elastic modulus (the springiness of the brass). But it does change how far you can move that brass before it won’t spring back all the way - the yield point.

When you seat a bullet in a case with heavy neck tension or soft brass you will yield the neck. Only with hardened brass and very light neck tension can you avoid this. So if you are yielding, you want the yield point to be the same for every case. AMP has data that annealing can improve this consistency.

case necks do not spring back whether they are annealed or not, that is why we have to size the necks.

Annealing affects a lot of brass's properties but the modulus of elasticity is not one of them. The elasticity is what determines the end neck tension. You can stretch annealed brass farther than hardened brass but Poisson's ration, shear modulus, and elasticity are not affected


Annealed Brass vs Full Hard Brass



elastic modulus 110 Gpa and 110 GPa



Elongation at break 62% and 8.0 %



Fatigue strength 85MPa and 97MPa



Poissons ratio .31 and .31



Rockwell Hardness 64 and 80



Shear Modulus 40 Gpa and 40GPa



Shear Strength 230 MPA and 510 MPa

http://www.virginia.edu/bohr/mse209/chapter6.htm

Once again ask yourself what results benchrest shooters achieved in the 70's, 80's and 90's before annealing of case necks at the home reloading bench was ever done. That in itself should cause one to give a pause for thought before shelling out hundreds if not thousands of dollars on something that has never been tested to see if it is effective. If I had it to do over again I would not bother with one and spend the money on a new barrel or ammo components

 

[dcali]

case necks do not spring back whether they are annealed or not, that is why we have to size the necks.

Annealing affects a lot of brass's properties but the modulus of elasticity is not one of them. The elasticity is what determines the end neck tension. You can stretch annealed brass farther than hardened brass but Poisson's ration, shear modulus, and elasticity are not affected


Annealed Brass vs Full Hard Brass



elastic modulus 110 Gpa and 110 GPa



Elongation at break 62% and 8.0 %



Fatigue strength 85MPa and 97MPa



Poissons ratio .31 and .31



Rockwell Hardness 64 and 80



Shear Modulus 40 Gpa and 40GPa



Shear Strength 230 MPA and 510 MPa

http://www.virginia.edu/bohr/mse209/chapter6.htm

Once again ask yourself what results benchrest shooters achieved in the 70's, 80's and 90's before annealing of case necks at the home reloading bench was ever done. That in itself should cause one to give a pause for thought before shelling out hundreds if not thousands of dollars on something that has never been tested to see if it is effective. If I had it to do over again I would not bother with one and spend the money on a new barrel or ammo components

If you run a tight neck you’ll find that you don’t need to size the neck because it never yields.

And while it’s true that annealing doesn’t change the elastic modulus, when the brass yields, the stess-strain relationship changes dramatically. And annealing changes the yield point. So if you allow the brass to yield when seating a bullet, you will have variable neck tension if the yield point is not consistent. That’s not an issue if the brass doesn’t yield. If you anneal, it’s almost certain that you are yielding the necks.

 

[JimSC]

If you run a tight neck you’ll find that you don’t need to size the neck because it never yields.

And while it’s true that annealing doesn’t change the elastic modulus, when the brass yields, the stess-strain relationship changes dramatically. And annealing changes the yield point. So if you allow the brass to yield when seating a bullet, you will have variable neck tension if the yield point is not consistent. That’s not an issue if the brass doesn’t yield. If you anneal, it’s almost certain that you are yielding the necks.

If you reach the yield point the brass is permanently deformed you just resized the neck and have no compression on the bullet at all. The elasticity modulus determines the resistance to deformation or in simpler terms how much that brass hugs the bullet. Annealing does nothing to alter that value, it simply realigns the grain of the metal.

Can anyone here explain why and how the shooters of the 70's and 80's had small groups and good case life before home annealing machines were common? It's not like people like Tony Boyer and Gale McMillon and other great shooters of those days had AMP's and Giraud's hidden in their shop

Here are some 2003 records as an example

http://www.benchrest.com/records.htm

 

[SGK]

Does that not beg the question as to why Lapua, for example, anneals their brass? Why are commercial cartridge brass annealing machines sold at all?

https://radyne.com/products/small-caliber-ammunition-annealing/

 

[dcali]

If you reach the yield point the brass is permanently deformed you just resized the neck and have no compression on the bullet at all. The elasticity modulus determines the resistance to deformation or in simpler terms how much that brass hugs the bullet. Annealing does nothing to alter that value, it simply realigns the grain of the metal.

That isn’t the way it works. Even when you plasticly deform a metal, the elastic portion of the deformation still springs back. Even when you yield the case, there will be some neck tension. The amount will be determined by the yield point.

 

[dcali]

Does that not beg the question as to why Lapua, for example, anneals their brass? Why are commercial cartridge brass annealing machines sold at all?

Lapua anneals because the forming process requires it - there is a lot of working of the brass and it splits if you don’t anneal at appropriate times. As for why the machines are sold? Because people will buy them.

 

[JimSC]

That isn’t the way it works. Even when you plasticly deform a metal, the elastic portion of the deformation still springs back. Even when you yield the case, there will be some neck tension. The amount will be determined by the yield point.

you pass the yield point when you fire the case not when you seat the bullet. A fired case passes the point of elastic deformation and is into the plastic deformation part of the curve. Once you pass into the plastic deformation there is no return to the original sizeThat is why you have to size necks after firing. The issue is not yield point or plastic deformation anyway. It is elasticity and that is a constant

Anyway I have shown it is neither cost prohibitive or complicated to prove me wrong on this. I challenge AMP, Giraud or whoever to prove that annealing affects SD or brass life by sponsoring a independent lab to use a test rifle and their machine and put some rounds downrange. I would be happy to be proved wrong and promise I will drop $1500 on a AMP if I am convinced. Until then I shall just continue to pour that money into consumables and practice, practice, practice