Annealing Machines in Late 2018

[jawjaboy]

I went with Mike's also. Had it about 2 years, no problems. However, if you stack the feeder all the way to the top with large cases, sometimes the cases will lodge together and fail to feed. Not really a problem as I have only stacked them that high messing around. I like to sit there and watch it work so, I only load about 15-25 cases at a time.

Had the same problem with 284 Win brass. At Mike's suggestion, taped a strip of corrugated cardboard to one side of the feeder ramps. Changes the distance betweens side so the cases will not bridge. I can stack it full of cases now with no problem.

 

[nmkid]

Had the same problem with 284 Win brass. At Mike's suggestion, taped a strip of corrugated cardboard to one side of the feeder ramps. Changes the distance betweens side so the cases will not bridge. I can stack it full of cases now with no problem.

Both sides of the "V"?

 

[jawjaboy]

Both sides of the "V"?

Only one side.

 

[nmkid]

Only one side.

Thanks

 

[jawjaboy]

Thanks

Don't know that is matters but put the cardboard on the left side opposite the release gate.

 

[rox]

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Will_the_Youngs_Modulus_E_value_change_with_heat_treatment

But the answer that made the most sense was this one.

underlining my me. When dealing with a bullet inserted into the neck of a case before and during first part of it being fired we are into the first part of the curve, the elastic portion. As the neck expands the neck farther from gas pressure in a normal (not tight necked) chamber the metal expands past the elastic portion of the curve into the plastic region therefore neck tension on case bullet will be constant regardless of the hardness until the neck diameter passes from the elastic region to the plastic.

Very interesting. What this seems to say is that the component of neck tension that is due solely to springback (however much that is) will *not* be affected by annealing, but any hardening effect of plastic deformation during sizing and firing *will* benefit from annealing. In other words, there may be little or no performance benefit to annealing, but it *will* benefit brass longevity (in chambers that require any kind of sizing). Is that a fair assessment?

 

[dcali]

Very interesting. What this seems to say is that the component of neck tension that is due solely to springback (however much that is) will *not* be affected by annealing, but any hardening effect of plastic deformation during sizing and firing *will* benefit from annealing. In other words, there may be little or no performance benefit to annealing, but it *will* benefit brass longevity (in chambers that require any kind of sizing). Is that a fair assessment?

Mostly. Brass life will benefit if you are losing brass to split necks.

I would not jump to the conclusion that reducing neck hardness is a benefit for neck tension. If the brass is hard, you get more spring back. If it’s soft you get less. If it’s highly variable, you get a mixed bag. According to AMP, their annealer does a little bit better job of keeping neck hardness consistent than not annealing at all. It would not surprise me if some of the torch units do a worse job, but I have no data to back that up.

None of that matters if you don’t yield the neck on seating. That limits the neck tension you can use to about 1.5 thousandths.

 

[JimSC]

Very interesting. What this seems to say is that the component of neck tension that is due solely to springback (however much that is) will *not* be affected by annealing, but any hardening effect of plastic deformation during sizing and firing *will* benefit from annealing. In other words, there may be little or no performance benefit to annealing, but it *will* benefit brass longevity (in chambers that require any kind of sizing). Is that a fair assessment?

that is what I gather, the question is how much life can you expect with and without annealing. Litz did ten reloads in his test and saw no deterioration and I have some old .308's with over 25 that were only annealed every few firings using a plumbers torch. Hardly what one would call a "perfect" anneal. I seem to recall reading a article once where some bench rest shooter loaded the same case over 30 times back in the 80's but damn if I can find it now

Just my personal habit now but I buy a new barrel I buy 200 Lapua cases for that barrel and trash them when I replace that barrel. Luckily I shoot commonly available cartridges. Now if I were shooting a .257 Roberts or had a cartridge that I had to jump through hoops to make and fire form I might have a different attitude.

 

[SGK]

Litz only looked at SD and, tangentially, case length growth. His conclusion:

We're not giving up on the value of annealing. I believe there are circumstances where annealing your brass can improve consistency. The minimal testing we've done so far only shows that annealing isn't always necessary to make good consistent ammo for many firings. Where annealing does matter is the subject of ongoing research that will be published in a later volume of Modern Advancements.

Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol II Bryan Litz pg 152.

 

[JimSC]

I would like to see some further testing showing that it is necessary, So far the only tests performed have shown it is not. Scientific evidence on the properties of metal behaviors back that up conclusion up at least as far as getting consistent accuracy is concerned. I shoot commonly available brass. If I can get ten to twenty reloads from a piece of brass I have gotten my moneys worth. It would take a whole lot of extra case life to justify spending $500 to $1500 for a annealing machine when the cases cost sixty cents to a dollar brand new and I can get double digit reloadings or as long as the primer pockets hang in there

 

[SGK]

Don't disagree. But then I had a lot of fun designing my annealer with auto case detection, NTC temperature sensing and PWM fan control, and the autofeeder!

 

[JimSC]

Don't disagree. But then I had a lot of fun designing my annealer with auto case detection, NTC temperature sensing and PWM fan control, and the autofeeder!

and I had a lot of fun modding my Annealeeze and to be quite honest I will miss sitting here listening to the plink, plink, plink of the cases dropping into the catch container. But have been doubtful about it's effectiveness since I read Litz's book. My latest research on it has pretty much killed any faith that it does anything beneficial except give my cases a nice rainbow effect from the oxidizing of impurities on the brass

 

[Phil3]

I have been annealing every firing for over a year now but those days are over for me. I am probably gonna get flamed from heck and back for this but if I had it to do over again I would not waste a dime on any annealing machine. Not a popular opinion I know but that is ok
I am not a metallurgist but from what I have read cold working affects the brass at the molecular level while the modulus of elasticity which would affect neck tension occurs at the atomic level

some reading I did that formed my opinion -

https://store.appliedballisticsllc.com/Modern_Advancements_in_Long_Range_Shooting_V_II_p/0008.htm

https://www.uni-ulm.de/fileadmin/website_uni_ulm/uzwr/mmsm/mmsm1-ws1314/mmsm1-handout-plasticity.pdf

https://www.thestructuralmadness.com/2014/02/ductility-and-elasticity.html

https://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookCHEM1.html

http://www.virginia.edu/bohr/mse209/chapter6.htm

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-ductility-and-elasticity


The other reason I am skeptical at best on any benefit from annealing has to do with the lack of testing at the actual firing line. I can find dozens of lab tests that show how annealing realigns the crystalline structure of the brass but try and find one showing firing line testing where the velocity SD & ES or durability of the brass changes or in any way over the course of ten or twenty reloadings. The only actual firing line test I can find is a limited one by Bryan Litz in his Modern Advancements Vol II where he found no changes in performance after ten firings whether the brass was annealed every firing or never annealed.

I have my asbestos boxers on so feel free to flame away. However if you want to persuade me find me some real word testing where velocity SD's or brass life was affected in any way by annealing or lack thereof. Pretty pictures of cases cut in half and microscopic pics of brass crystals are all well and good but that tells me nothing about real world performance. I want to see some tests performed with a machine rest and documented by a reputable lab or a world class shooter who is willing to stake his rep on the results

When thinking about this you might consider that precision shooting with long brass life was happening long before anyone ever annealed a case at home. Some damn small groups were shot and brass was reloaded well past ten reloads prior to this century

I am the OP, but after reading all the comments, I have it to hand it to JimSC for challenging popular opinion, trend, or as some may call it, a "fad". I know what it is like to have to have to don the asbestos boxers!

After reading here, it seems that neck tension (and impact on accuracy) is a primary concern with case life another. For the former, I have an idea to determine changes in case neck tension between annealed and un-annealed cases. The case neck tension measurement would be in how much force is required to move the bullet OUT of the neck (not seating force). I will not attempt to measure affect on accuracy, as there are simply too many uncontrollable variables (at least for me) affecting results on target.

At this point, sufficient questions have been raised to call into question the benefits of annealing (imo), so will not spend money for an annealer. Besides, a good friend has the AMP machine that he has graciously allowed me access to. That will also help me perform the test above. If the test shows annealing affects tension, then I will likely anneal, even if I cannot be sure of the effect tightly controlled neck tension has on accuracy.

Phil

 

[JimSC]

I'll be shooting quite a few test groups across my chrono this next month due to seasonal temperature changes and load adjustments. I changed barrels last spring and have to do to do new winter load adjustments. I promise if I see the SD's beginning to climb I will go back to annealing after every firing and if SD's fall I will come back here to feast on roast crow with all the trimmings with a hearty round of "I told you so's.

 

[stifffingers]

If you reach the yield point the brass is permanently deformed you just resized the neck and have no compression on the bullet at all. The elasticity modulus determines the resistance to deformation or in simpler terms how much that brass hugs the bullet. Annealing does nothing to alter that value, it simply realigns the grain of the metal.

Can anyone here explain why and how the shooters of the 70's and 80's had small groups and good case life before home annealing machines were common? It's not like people like Tony Boyer and Gale McMillon and other great shooters of those days had AMP's and Giraud's hidden in their shop

Here are some 2003 records as an example

http://www.benchrest.com/records.htm

Splain this. If you size the neck of a never annealed case many times fired, and a case annealed every firing using the same bushing they are .001 different. AMP tells us you have to use a .001 larger bushing because annealed brass looses spring back.

 

[dcali]

Splain this. If you size the neck of a never annealed case many times fired, and a case annealed every firing using the same bushing they are .100 different. AMP tells us you have to use a .100 larger bushing because annealed brass looses spring back.

Annealed brass yields sooner, so the elastic (temporary) portion of the sizing is smaller relative to the plastic (permanent) portion. The elastic portion is what is more commonly known as “spring back”. We size to permanently change the size of the neck, so the plastic portion is what we are interested in.

As the brass hardens, it yields later, after more elastic deformation. The difference between hard and soft brass is substantial, as the yield strength of hard brass is roughly 4x that of soft brass.

So when you size a hard case, it will spring back more given the same bushing size. That is, you will need to use a smaller bushing to overcome the spring back in the harder brass.

Think of lead - it has an extremely low yield point. You don't think of it a a "springy" material, becasue it yields almost immediately, springing back very little. That's more or less how very soft brass behaves.