Yes. Primary recoil occurs as soon as the bullet leaves the casing. Prior to that, the forces exerted by the expanding pressures inside the cartridge are equal in all directions - rearward, forward, up, down, and sideways. Result - no recoil. When the bullet starts to move, recoil begins. It's not easily visible, even on ultra slow motion video because the bullet's time of travel in the barrel is only a few thousandths of a second. When the bullet leaves the muzzle, the greater secondary recoil occurs. The data I've seen indicates the front sight (muzzle) of a pistol moves approximately .03" while the bullet is in the barrel. The amount of movement is very small, but enough to show up on a target if bullets of different weights and velocities are fired from the same gun.
Shockwave Shadows in Ultra Slow Motion
- Thread starter Texas10
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As to whether or not recoil only begins after the bullet has left the muzzle, there is another video that pretty much leaves no doubt. https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...8cfc70215a80118f302571f796b6d9c2&action=click
So IMOP the most accurate statement regarding when recoil starts is, IT DEPENDS.
If the bullet is a 50 grain and the gun weighs 15 lbs, that's a lot of mass to try to move with just 50 grains, no matter how fast you accelerate it. But in this video, we see a .416 Barret quickly accelerating a bullet of fairly large mass to a very high velocity. And as you can see, the barrel is moving before the bullet leaves the barrel.
Or maybe the shooter jerked the trigger real hard.
So IMOP the most accurate statement regarding when recoil starts is, IT DEPENDS.
If the bullet is a 50 grain and the gun weighs 15 lbs, that's a lot of mass to try to move with just 50 grains, no matter how fast you accelerate it. But in this video, we see a .416 Barret quickly accelerating a bullet of fairly large mass to a very high velocity. And as you can see, the barrel is moving before the bullet leaves the barrel.
Or maybe the shooter jerked the trigger real hard.
OK...... so there's PHYSICS,
and there's everything else.
There are a lot of opinions and concepts being expressed in this thread that are as grounded as cigarette smoke on the wind.... home'ade opinions. Most of them based on "observation"
I'm setting here in a warm comfortable environment, typing away merrily on a device that didn't exist just a few yrs ago, using technology that has been developed in my short lifetime because of PHYSICS, not because of the opinion of what somebody thinks they "saw" on youtube.
"proof" means something folks.
"words mean things"
and there's everything else.
There are a lot of opinions and concepts being expressed in this thread that are as grounded as cigarette smoke on the wind.... home'ade opinions. Most of them based on "observation"
I'm setting here in a warm comfortable environment, typing away merrily on a device that didn't exist just a few yrs ago, using technology that has been developed in my short lifetime because of PHYSICS, not because of the opinion of what somebody thinks they "saw" on youtube.
"proof" means something folks.
"words mean things"
dcali
Bullet Maker
What al said. This isn’t seriously debatable. If there is bullet movement, there is recoil. Ask any high school physics teacher about conservation of momentum.
The reason the gun looks to be still in the videos is because the time frame is so short, the bullet is moving so much faster than the gun, and a little bit because the gun’s movement is being resisted by a force- the shooter. If you could look closely enough, you would see movement.
That’s the physics behind it.
The reason the gun looks to be still in the videos is because the time frame is so short, the bullet is moving so much faster than the gun, and a little bit because the gun’s movement is being resisted by a force- the shooter. If you could look closely enough, you would see movement.
That’s the physics behind it.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
They made a deal to do it only that way, long before either of us were born.
I believe that is Newton's 3rd Law of Physics: For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. That's how a jet/rocket engine works.
"...forces exerted by the expanding pressures inside the cartridge are equal in all directions - rearward, forward, up, down, and sideways...."
So the forward acting forces move the bullet forward, but the rearward forces acting on the firearm don't move the firearm rearward.....hmmm
The forces in the barrel may be equal in all directions, but ahead of the bullet the pressure, and thus force is less; and the bullet moves. Similarly there is unequal force on the fire arm -fore/ aft, and it moves as well.
Maybe I should have said - At some point before the pressure is great enough to start pushing the bullet forward, there's an instant where the pressures are equal in all directions. Of course, the pressure required to start the bullet moving is much smaller than the peak pressure, which isn't reached until the bullet is some distance down the barrel. So this instant is a very brief point along the time line of the pressure curve. It's not an important point. I was just trying to say that without movement of gases and projectile, there's no recoil. As soon as the bullet starts moving, recoil begins.
Interestingly enough..... if you're inside a barrel, hanging in space and you have a machine gun and a bowling ball and a dirtbike and (It's a BIG barrel) some hammers and gongs and bags of sand and three basketballs and a rubber chicken. And two guys, and lots of food, and lots of energy.....and a window so's you can see where you want to go.....
You can't make that barrel move anywhere's.
until you poke a hole and start throwing stuff OUT......
This video is very, very interesting for those using or selling E-Targets. It clearly shows the heart of the physics that pertain to the RELIABILITY of E-Targets.
If you use your imagination, add a perpendicular row of acoustic sensors to the video, you have the senario.
The problem with that is, the pressure waves never come in perpendicular to all the sensors simultaneous!
In the real world there is considerable trajectory arc accompanied by the projectile PLUS the Doppler effect from wind.
Now transpose those variables into the video and imagine how the pressure waves affect the timing in which the sensors receive the the wave (or sound).
If you use your imagination, add a perpendicular row of acoustic sensors to the video, you have the senario.
The problem with that is, the pressure waves never come in perpendicular to all the sensors simultaneous!
In the real world there is considerable trajectory arc accompanied by the projectile PLUS the Doppler effect from wind.
Now transpose those variables into the video and imagine how the pressure waves affect the timing in which the sensors receive the the wave (or sound).
This is why my kid is working on an optical pickup target.
Turns out CMOS triggers used to register just bullet glint can do amazing things.....
That said. I have some acoustic targets. Does putting them "inside a barrel" (shrouding them) help with wind or just confuse them?
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
if the gun doesn't move before the bullet exits the barrel then a tuner wouldn't change nothing no matter how much you move it- and its proven that it does in fact change the harmonics so that proves the barrel does in fact move before the bullet exits. in fact it starts moving the instant the sear drops.
Wow, no wonder so many people voted for Obama.
High school physics teachers really aren't experts in physics.
Hatcher has been proven wrong on several points, especially terminal ballistics.
Tuners don't change recoil effects, they change barrel harmonics.
Yes jet engines work by pushing expanding hot gasses out of a tube, and that's the point, the engine doesn't work if the gasses don't escape out of the system. Until the bullet leaves the bore the gasses push with equal force in all directions making it impossible for the center of mass to move anywhere.
Ok, so while the bullet is in the bore you have expanding gasses that exert equal pressure in all directions. If that's true then wouldn't that mean the all of the energy being generated is neutralized by equal and opposite pairs?
How about a cylinder of compressed gas? Why don't they move when they are full of high pressure gas? Obviously they move pretty energetically when you knock the valve off the bottle, again, because the gasses are escaping from inside they system and they are pushing with more force than the mass of the bottle. They don't move because the energy inside the bottle is pushing equally in all directions.
That video showing several recoil operated firearms isn't valid proof of how recoil energies work, they are designed to move their parts by recoil energy as soon as possible, they are engineered so that the mass of the recoiling parts will be moved as quickly as possible limited only by the how much time is needed to reduce the amount of hot gasses that will blast back in to the shooters face. The Barrett is a recoil operated rifle so, again, it is designed to move as soon as possible, you can't make a recoil operated firearm work after all of the gasses have left the bore, you have to take advantage of the expanding gasses and use them to operate the weapon.
Notice that the equation that defines recoil defines recoil as a result of EJECTA, meaning that with nothing coming out of the muzzle there is no recoil. Notice that with both of the weapons fired in that video there are gasses ejected from the barrel before the bullet leaves the muzzle - that is the force that is outside the system and it is being used to start the recoil operation of the weapon.
Again, as long as nothing leaves the system, there is no recoil.
High school physics teachers really aren't experts in physics.
Hatcher has been proven wrong on several points, especially terminal ballistics.
Tuners don't change recoil effects, they change barrel harmonics.
Yes jet engines work by pushing expanding hot gasses out of a tube, and that's the point, the engine doesn't work if the gasses don't escape out of the system. Until the bullet leaves the bore the gasses push with equal force in all directions making it impossible for the center of mass to move anywhere.
Ok, so while the bullet is in the bore you have expanding gasses that exert equal pressure in all directions. If that's true then wouldn't that mean the all of the energy being generated is neutralized by equal and opposite pairs?
How about a cylinder of compressed gas? Why don't they move when they are full of high pressure gas? Obviously they move pretty energetically when you knock the valve off the bottle, again, because the gasses are escaping from inside they system and they are pushing with more force than the mass of the bottle. They don't move because the energy inside the bottle is pushing equally in all directions.
That video showing several recoil operated firearms isn't valid proof of how recoil energies work, they are designed to move their parts by recoil energy as soon as possible, they are engineered so that the mass of the recoiling parts will be moved as quickly as possible limited only by the how much time is needed to reduce the amount of hot gasses that will blast back in to the shooters face. The Barrett is a recoil operated rifle so, again, it is designed to move as soon as possible, you can't make a recoil operated firearm work after all of the gasses have left the bore, you have to take advantage of the expanding gasses and use them to operate the weapon.
Notice that the equation that defines recoil defines recoil as a result of EJECTA, meaning that with nothing coming out of the muzzle there is no recoil. Notice that with both of the weapons fired in that video there are gasses ejected from the barrel before the bullet leaves the muzzle - that is the force that is outside the system and it is being used to start the recoil operation of the weapon.
Again, as long as nothing leaves the system, there is no recoil.
None of it changes anything because for every force in one direction there is an opposite and equal force - the net result is the same, no force remains to move the center of mass.
dcali
Bullet Maker
Nothing needs to leave the system. Parts of it simply need to move. Take two wights, connect them with a spring. compress that spring and put the assembly on a table. Then let go. Is only one of the weights going to move? Which one? Why? What has left the system?
Energy
If you have a college level understanding of physics you will see several comments on this thread that are not correct and there is nothing for you to learn here, just frustration at the ignorance. If you do not have that level of knowledge it is difficult to judge the validity of the comments so I would recommend that you ignore this thread altogether, there is too much risk of learning something that is not true.
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