Button VS Cut rifling question

[dkhunt14]

Since Frank posted some positive results about cut rifling and some negative results about button rifling I have often wondered why do they lap cut rifling and some lap button rifling it would be interesting to know what the reasoning is.

I think most custom barrels are lapped. Matt

 

[FrankG]

I think most custom barrels are lapped. Matt

In the past some cut barrels were not lapped. Example being is 1917 Enfields, 1903 Springfield barrels, early Winchesters etc... Most of your match type barrel makers will lap barrels.

Some early barrel makers like Pope would lap the barrel after the barrel was chambered and before it was rifled! By doing it this way they removed the chamber reamer marks from the throat of the chamber/barrel area. When he did it this way to my understanding he didn’t do any finish lapping. Pretty interesting.

Some button makers say you don’t need to finish lap a button made barrel because button rifling they will say will iron out the reamer marks. Not necessarily true. The reamer marks just get pressed down into the grooves.

The biggest reason for what I will say is what I call pre-lapping is to help remove left over marks from the bore reamer. The nicer the reamer finish the easier it is to pre-lap as well as finish lap the barrel. We play close attention to the bore reamer finish. Again the nicer the finish here and close to the size we want the less/easier it is for any type of lapping.

The way we do it....is to pre-lap after reaming and before rifling. Then finish lap after rifling.

Lapping should be meant as a final polish and should not be used to change barrel sizes intentionally. Yes when you lap you will take say .0001-.0002” out but you shouldn’t be doing it to get the barrel to finish size. I’ve seen cases where barrel makers have tried to take as much as .001” out by lapping. When you try and do this you usually end up having a bore of a barrel that is not uniform thru out the length of the barrel.

Later, Frank

 

[JBT47]

Thank you Frank for your prescense here and for answering our questions.

 

[FrankG]

Thank you Frank for your prescense here and for answering our questions.

Your welcome! I added more to my last post. Figured I should make it a little more detailed.

Later, Frank

 

[calgarycanada]

Your welcome! I added more to my last post. Figured I should make it a little more detailed.

Later, Frank

Thanks Frank, for explaining in such details
I’m in need of new barrel for FTR setup. At first I was thinking heavy Palma but then I noticed you guys list Whitley Palma, it’s bit skinnier to start and got me thinking. Barrels starts out at 1.250 and in 3-5 inches taper down to 1” ish and continue tapering down to muzzle. This second taper, is it desirable/beneficial? What if you take Whitley Palma and once it drops to .950” you continue.950” to muzzle? If you can please shed some light on that that’ll be great.
BTW I can have barrel upto 7 lbs and would like use it all so thinking about something slightly heavier than heavy palma. I’ll be shooting 200 gr pills, depending on whichever shoots best so thinking 30” 5 groove 9.5 twist.

 

[Tim s]

Question for Frank G.
I completely understand all you have posted here and the fact that the thread, primarily, is all about centerfire barrels.
Since I shoot both CF and RF benchrest I would appreciate any insight you are willing to provide.
Why is the rimfire world dominated by buttoned barrels for the most part ?
Can it be the need to taper lap a bore ? Admittedly there has not been a substantial cut barrel entry into the field other than a few examples.......why?

 

[GSPV]

In the past some cut barrels were not lapped. Example being is 1917 Enfields, 1903 Springfield barrels, early Winchesters etc... Most of your match type barrel makers will lap barrels.

Some early barrel makers like Pope would lap the barrel after the barrel was chambered and before it was rifled! By doing it this way they removed the chamber reamer marks from the throat of the chamber/barrel area. When he did it this way to my understanding he didn’t do any finish lapping. Pretty interesting.

Some button makers say you don’t need to finish lap a button made barrel because button rifling they will say will iron out the reamer marks. Not necessarily true. The reamer marks just get pressed down into the grooves.

The biggest reason for what I will say is what I call pre-lapping is to help remove left over marks from the bore reamer. The nicer the reamer finish the easier it is to pre-lap as well as finish lap the barrel. We play close attention to the bore reamer finish. Again the nicer the finish here and close to the size we want the less/easier it is for any type of lapping.

The way we do it....is to pre-lap after reaming and before rifling. Then finish lap after rifling.

Lapping should be meant as a final polish and should not be used to change barrel sizes intentionally. Yes when you lap you will take say .0001-.0002” out but you shouldn’t be doing it to get the barrel to finish size. I’ve seen cases where barrel makers have tried to take as much as .001” out by lapping. When you try and do this you usually end up having a bore of a barrel that is not uniform thru out the length of the barrel.

Later, Frank

Is the “pre-lap” where some makers are using the Sunnen hone?

 

[JPB3]

I'm pretty sure Pac Nor uses the Sunnen...

 

[muleystalker]

I have bought them all for different projects over the years and I like kreiger,pac-nor,bartlein ,mcgowen which offers cut barrels now. X-caliber is a rising star, shilen, criterion and others are all way better than factory barrels. Broughton I have never tried but brux are very fine barrels as well. I would stay away from lilja only for the reason of his arrogance. Lederer is a good one along with many others including hart but hart says they don't make bad barrels so they lost all my business. You can get a hummer in all of the barrels or a turd but the top makers you cant go wrong in the big picture which would be kreiger,brux,bartlein, and pac-nor.

And I believe X Caliber sells savage chambered barrels

 

[FrankG]

Thanks Frank, for explaining in such details
I’m in need of new barrel for FTR setup. At first I was thinking heavy Palma but then I noticed you guys list Whitley Palma, it’s bit skinnier to start and got me thinking. Barrels starts out at 1.250 and in 3-5 inches taper down to 1” ish and continue tapering down to muzzle. This second taper, is it desirable/beneficial? What if you take Whitley Palma and once it drops to .950” you continue.950” to muzzle? If you can please shed some light on that that’ll be great.
BTW I can have barrel upto 7 lbs and would like use it all so thinking about something slightly heavier than heavy palma. I’ll be shooting 200 gr pills, depending on whichever shoots best so thinking 30” 5 groove 9.5 twist.

CC, You can take the Whitley Palma contour and at the neck make it .950 and just run it straight to the muzzle with no taper. Won’t hurt anything. Will just make the barrel a little heavier. I don’t see it hurting ya or helping you in any neg. or positive way.

I tell guys the contour effects overall weight more than anything else. The debate goes on all the time on a straight no taper barrel vs. a tapered/contoured barrel and which is more accurate.

I’ve got straight no contour barrels, tapered barrels, sporter and Palma and modified Palma contours on my guns. No issues. It’s more of what I’m building and how I want it to look to what the weight needs to be etc...

Pick your poision!

Later, Frank

 

[Stan Taylor]

CC, You can take the Whitley Palma contour and at the neck make it .950 and just run it straight to the muzzle with no taper. Won’t hurt anything. Will just make the barrel a little heavier. I don’t see it hurting ya or helping you in any neg. or positive way.

I tell guys the contour effects overall weight more than anything else. The debate goes on all the time on a straight no taper barrel vs. a tapered/contoured barrel and which is more accurate.

I’ve got straight no contour barrels, tapered barrels, sporter and Palma and modified Palma contours on my guns. No issues. It’s more of what I’m building and how I want it to look to what the weight needs to be etc...

Pick your poision!

Later, Frank

Well I have never shot a cut rifle barrel but you made a good point though.

 

[FrankG]

Question for Frank G.
I completely understand all you have posted here and the fact that the thread, primarily, is all about centerfire barrels.
Since I shoot both CF and RF benchrest I would appreciate any insight you are willing to provide.
Why is the rimfire world dominated by buttoned barrels for the most part ?
Can it be the need to taper lap a bore ? Admittedly there has not been a substantial cut barrel entry into the field other than a few examples.......why?

Tim, We don’t push one shooting discipline over another.

A cut barrel can run and beat button barrels in RF as well. As a side note we do make the AMU a pretty fair number of RF barrels. Also Grunig and Elmiger rifles offer our barrels as an option. They tested 20 of our barrels in they’re facility and at Eley about 3 years ago. They also tested them against other button made barrels. They gave me the test targets. Our barrels shot as well or out shot the button barrels. I have all the targets at the shop on my computer.

Use to be said in CF BR that a cut barrel couldn’t shoot with a button. Now cut barrels dominate in CF BR among other disciplines. For years the only cut barrel maker out there was Obermeyer and for the most part him being a HP shooter didn’t cater to the BR crowd at all. There where some others like Atkinson etc...but overall for every cut barrel maker there seemed to be ten button makers.

As far as lapping choke into the bores....we always strive for a 0 uniformity end to end and if anything we are putting .0001”-.0002” choke into the barrel.

Later, Frank

 

[FrankG]

Is the “pre-lap” where some makers are using the Sunnen hone?

We tested the protoype Sunnen machine for Sunnen hone for what I still call pre-lapping the barrels. We purchased two of the production machines. I guess you could say we liked the prototype that much! We ran the prototype machine for over a year.

One of the button makers called me and asked my opinion of the Sunnen machine. I gave them an honest opinion. They ended up purchasing one as well.

On some calibers we still pre-lap the barrels by hand but not many anymore. What I will say is it took the human variable out of the equation and you get more consistent bore size uniformity.

Late, Frank

 

[GSPV]

Thank you, Frank. I appreciate it.

 

[FrankG]

Question for Frank G.
I completely understand all you have posted here and the fact that the thread, primarily, is all about centerfire barrels.
Since I shoot both CF and RF benchrest I would appreciate any insight you are willing to provide.
Why is the rimfire world dominated by buttoned barrels for the most part ?
Can it be the need to taper lap a bore ? Admittedly there has not been a substantial cut barrel entry into the field other than a few examples.......why?

Forgot another good example....approx. 10 years ago Norma Ammunition was asked to test barrels for a European Olympic team. If I recall correctly there where over 20 different manufactures used for the test. Our barrels where tied for the number one spot in regards to accuracy. We tied with Border Barrels (now out of business). If I recall correctly Anschutz barrels only came in 10th. The European team went with Border only because of saving on import and shipping costs is what I was told.

There is more that goes on than what we all see and here.

Later, Frank

 

[Tim s]

Tim, We don’t push one shooting discipline over another.

A cut barrel can run and beat button barrels in RF as well. As a side note we do make the AMU a pretty fair number of RF barrels. Also Grunig and Elmiger rifles offer our barrels as an option. They tested 20 of our barrels in they’re facility and at Eley about 3 years ago. They also tested them against other button made barrels. They gave me the test targets. Our barrels shot as well or out shot the button barrels. I have all the targets at the shop on my computer.

Use to be said in CF BR that a cut barrel couldn’t shoot with a button. Now cut barrels dominate in CF BR among other disciplines. For years the only cut barrel maker out there was Obermeyer and for the most part him being a HP shooter didn’t cater to the BR crowd at all. There where some others like Atkinson etc...but overall for every cut barrel maker there seemed to be ten button makers.

As far as lapping choke into the bores....we always strive for a 0 uniformity end to end and if anything we are putting .0001”-.0002” choke into the barrel.

Later, Frank

Great info, I really appreciate the info.
One last question, can you guys incorporate any modest gain in the RF blanks as well ?

 

[FrankG]

Great info, I really appreciate the info.
One last question, can you guys incorporate any modest gain in the RF blanks as well ?

Do it all the time!

I myself on two guns am running a 16.25 to a 16 twist.

 

[FrankG]

Well I have never shot a cut rifle barrel but you made a good point though.

Will make ya stick Stan!