I wonder this a lot. It seems like I do not shoot to shoot, it's all load development and learning. I don't think there is an end. Biggest thing I learned in my first year is to keep it simple. Don't start out 15 different bullets and use 15 different powders per bullet. Do 1 bullet at a time methodically. That's almost as hard as learning to shoot good really.
How does anyone ever achieve the perfect load?
- Thread starter clunker
- Start date
2 things i will add
there is no perfect load. ask the ppc shooters what it takes to keep their rifles in tune.
pick a starting powder and bullet and if it doesn't work move on. many waste a barrel trying to make it shoot what they want it to. rifle/barrel will tell you what it likes
most important have fun. some days everything comes together and some days it all falls apart.
there is no perfect load. ask the ppc shooters what it takes to keep their rifles in tune.
pick a starting powder and bullet and if it doesn't work move on. many waste a barrel trying to make it shoot what they want it to. rifle/barrel will tell you what it likes
most important have fun. some days everything comes together and some days it all falls apart.
rocketron
Silver $$ Contributor
good advice here. the hard part is knowing to move on sooner rather than later.
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
You're WAY over-thinking it. Pick the single highest BC bullet that will suit your needs, MAYBE two. Pick a single powder...and IMO, it's neither one of the two you listed, but maybe that's just me.
Enter the information quandary!!
Nedd says his powder choice is different than mine! Who is “right”?
Maybe we both are? Maybe I just got tired of trying all the different combinations and stopped spinning my wheels when I found a combo that shot “acceptably “?
Dissect “acceptably” . What considerations did I weigh, in making the decision to stop searching and declare that load the best load “for my gun”?
Old gun?
Half cooked barrel?
Factory piece of crap?
Can’t find any “good” powder so this has to be it?
What is “good” in my world?
A conclusion based on years of experience?
What I have to shoot to beat my buddy’s group?
Etc., etc..........
You can really mind F#&% yourself if you’re not careful!
Seek out more experienced shooters and ask them most will help you as they have been there. Go to the range to compete or observe scores do not lie. Those that score well may not be the ones that do a lot of posting.
Pheasanthunter
Gold $$ Contributor
Just look at all the priceless fun you just had
If you use the Berger method you find the seating depth first and then find the best powder and charge. So I go to the Nosler book and find the most accurate load and use that for the seating test.
I want to use a powder that fills the case +90%, but don't want a compressed load. I want to use a bullet that matches the barrel twist. I use the 2 shot group, because the group will never get smaller than the first 2 shots. I look for shots touching and in the same horizontal for 1 grain of powder. ie: 29,29.3 and 29.6 shoot in the same spot on the target. Then I load 5 and test, discover I just shot a pattern and my method sucks!!!!!!
Bill
I want to use a powder that fills the case +90%, but don't want a compressed load. I want to use a bullet that matches the barrel twist. I use the 2 shot group, because the group will never get smaller than the first 2 shots. I look for shots touching and in the same horizontal for 1 grain of powder. ie: 29,29.3 and 29.6 shoot in the same spot on the target. Then I load 5 and test, discover I just shot a pattern and my method sucks!!!!!!
Bill
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
everyone just admit it "there is no perfect load",theres always another bend in the road with something new to check out,,
dcali
Bullet Maker
In any shooting endeavor the trick is to chase the most imoprtant factor. Once that issue is nailed down, move on to the next. When you are tuning a load, the big factors in rough order of importance (mileage may vary - it's an art as much as a science) looks something like this:
bullet choice
powder choice
seating depth
powder charge
brass prep/sizing
primer choice (where this one is in terms of importance is up for debate - I'm sticking it here because it never seems to be *the* problem with a load for my rifles).
benchrest minutiae (this is a DEEP hole).
Most shooters just give up on testing bullet choice and powder choice, and use what quickload or eveyrone else tells them to do. This usually works, and it cuts out a huge number of variables. Seating depth and powder charge can be narrowed similarly by starting in areas that other shooters have had success with. By the time you're down to brass prep and sizing, you likely have a pretty good shooting rifle. This is where most people stop.
The tricky part is that there is some connection between the levels. You can't pick a powder charge and then change your bullet.
Benchresters take it another level down. Since they're all shooting 6PPCs in very similar rifles, and have been for decades, there is a massive communal store of knowledge as to what works and what doesn't. They can use that experience to get a very good shooter (by our standards), and then play around with other issues, like custom sizing dies, ignition, and other more obscure stuff trying to shave off another 20 thous from their agg. That's the only way such a huge number of combinations could be narrowed down - you can't do it by yourself in a lifetime, let alone one barrel.
bullet choice
powder choice
seating depth
powder charge
brass prep/sizing
primer choice (where this one is in terms of importance is up for debate - I'm sticking it here because it never seems to be *the* problem with a load for my rifles).
benchrest minutiae (this is a DEEP hole).
Most shooters just give up on testing bullet choice and powder choice, and use what quickload or eveyrone else tells them to do. This usually works, and it cuts out a huge number of variables. Seating depth and powder charge can be narrowed similarly by starting in areas that other shooters have had success with. By the time you're down to brass prep and sizing, you likely have a pretty good shooting rifle. This is where most people stop.
The tricky part is that there is some connection between the levels. You can't pick a powder charge and then change your bullet.
Benchresters take it another level down. Since they're all shooting 6PPCs in very similar rifles, and have been for decades, there is a massive communal store of knowledge as to what works and what doesn't. They can use that experience to get a very good shooter (by our standards), and then play around with other issues, like custom sizing dies, ignition, and other more obscure stuff trying to shave off another 20 thous from their agg. That's the only way such a huge number of combinations could be narrowed down - you can't do it by yourself in a lifetime, let alone one barrel.
I gave up on the quest for perfection decades ago. Now, rather to reinvent the wheel, I just duplicate the efforts of others who have more ability, access to more and better facilities and most important, more funds to pursue optimum results. Some stuff is just a given for a certain circumstance - ammunition included. If a bunch of shooters use essentially the same stuff to get great results with very minor differences in performance it would appear that this would be at least a good start and possibly a solution to the entire problem.
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
you can run down the tiger and grab it by the tail,but then what are you going to do with it,,can't turn it loose, can't keep holding it,,just grab the checkbook and get more,,
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Much depends upon the criteria used to judge the performance. If using group size as the response, more shots are required than if simply looking for minimal impact on changes in point of impact (eg ladder test). Then there are any number of efficient statistical experimental designs which allow you to evaluate a number of variables together to determine the optimum combination of variables such as powder charge and seating depth. For example Tony Boyer shows a method using group size as the response to all combinations of a charge and seating depth matrix to define the optimum combination, which obviously has worked well for him. A main point being a well defined strategy will cost less and provide superior results vs a disjointed hunt and peck approach.
There is no perfect load......At some point you just have to shoot the damn thing...( note to self )
And I wonder if most of these guys ever get far enough away from the key board to hit the target.
F. Guffey
Downhill
Gold $$ Contributor
Hate to add this but....... when shooting for groups and that damn flier goes out. "Was that the load? Or did I pull the shot? Or did I miss a condition change? Or was I on the rifle differently? Primer inconsistency? Bullet inconsistency? Lunar cycle? Paris Hilton??".
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
All The Above..............Except definitely NOT you....
http://classic.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7309186
I won the bid, I was disappointed in the behavior of the reloading forums because they made a big effort to make them selves look good at the expanse of the seller. I wanted the parts but could not figure how someone could build something that ugly without knowing what he was doing. And; I was concerned the attention could drive the price up.
Before I went for the sum of the parts I loaded 120 rounds with 12 different cases with different head stamps, I used 12 different loads and I used different bullets. There was nothing I could do about the heat, the rifle got hot in a hurry so I took all day. The groups never opened up, I did not have a flyer, the groups did move (but did not open up) and no group was larger that a quarter, some groups shared the same hole.
When finished firing the 120 rounds I decided there was nothing I could do to improve the accuracy; I could have changed the speed of the firing pin for no other reason than I like killer firing pins.
There is no moral to the story with the exception of the critics, the builder knew more about building for accuracy than all of the responders from the different forums. The mount, scope rings and scope cost more than the rifle + shipping.
Sometimes the effort starts out as determining 'what does the rifle like?' This rifle liked everything I loaded.
F. Guffey
I won the bid, I was disappointed in the behavior of the reloading forums because they made a big effort to make them selves look good at the expanse of the seller. I wanted the parts but could not figure how someone could build something that ugly without knowing what he was doing. And; I was concerned the attention could drive the price up.
Before I went for the sum of the parts I loaded 120 rounds with 12 different cases with different head stamps, I used 12 different loads and I used different bullets. There was nothing I could do about the heat, the rifle got hot in a hurry so I took all day. The groups never opened up, I did not have a flyer, the groups did move (but did not open up) and no group was larger that a quarter, some groups shared the same hole.
When finished firing the 120 rounds I decided there was nothing I could do to improve the accuracy; I could have changed the speed of the firing pin for no other reason than I like killer firing pins.
There is no moral to the story with the exception of the critics, the builder knew more about building for accuracy than all of the responders from the different forums. The mount, scope rings and scope cost more than the rifle + shipping.
Sometimes the effort starts out as determining 'what does the rifle like?' This rifle liked everything I loaded.
F. Guffey
Last edited:
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
Guffy, that is one butt ugly gun, I've worked with a few 17 actions and they seemed good,,but the big question is ,,does the gun like you,,
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.