Bullet seating force is very rough

[anschuter2013]

Reestablish an adequate inside neck chamfer. Then, before loading new rounds, inspect and clean your dies. It's likely that the hard clicking when seating left copper jacket shavings. Been there, done that.

 

[johara1]

An other thing that may help is the tool use to chamfer, a K&M one is the best I found and it keeps it straight using the rod through the flash hole. Next is the nylon brush to clean a little on the inside of the neck, I wrap 0000 steel wool around the brush up about half way then wrap some tape around it to hold it in placed use it to polish the case mouth while the brush is cleaning the inside of the neck a little. Don't get carried away, I do it under power..... I also anneal every time.... if you clean all the black out you will get the condition you speak of. .0005 is not close enough on uniformity, .0001 is..... jim

 

[dgeesaman]

Some update:
I pulled (and reseated) the last 3 bullets that I had done, and I know a couple of them seated roughly. I could find no evidence of galling or scratching aside from the light marks that I had added using the collet puller. Bullets are well clear of the case shoulder / donut.

I fired these loads yesterday. Some measurements:
ID after firing: .2435-.2445
OD after firing: .268-.269
Neck wall thickness: .0110 to .0112. Much better than my Sako brass. Measured with a B&S #176 tubing mic on upper half only, where the bullet engages.

"what does the sized case measure on the outside of the neck before you seat a bullet? and after you seat it. measure it at the pressure ring area of the neck... jim"
Where exactly is this "pressing ring area of the neck"?

I wasn't brushing these necks. I used to, but the nylon brush never seemed to get anything out so I stopped. There has been a layer of carbon in them since first firing.

Last time I chamfered was two firings ago when I trimmed them to uniform length. I used a basic chamfer/deburr tool and basically just break the inner and outer edges. That K&M tool seems worthwhile upgrade.

About annealing and turning, Sako PPC is a no-turn neck and I'm told that 10x firings without annealing is reasonable. I'm not declaring this to be fact, but I'd rather avoid these things right now. My goal is maximum practical accuracy since this rifle really isn't a benchrest rifle.

In case you're curious how the loads fired, I forgot my front rest and used a bipod in my shooting bag. The loads were a wide range of seating depths per the Berger seating depth approach with 25.4gr of LT-32. Bullets were Berger Web BR and Column. The accuracy was very good for varminting but not what it should be on a bench.

 

[dgeesaman]

I reloaded my first 21 pcs. Put a fresh chamfer on all of them and sized down using a .263 bushing for the first 9, and .264 for the rest. The .263 bushing was leaving the OD at .262-.263, which is a lot of sizing and about .003 neck tension. The .264 bushing resulted in .2635-.264 OD.

Unfortunately, almost 1/3 of them did not seat smoothly. The ones I sized with the .263 bushing were a bit more severe when it happened but about the same frequency.

Another batch of rounds with questionable accuracy, but since I repeated the last set of loading specs, I could at least compare to yesterday's targets.

 

[chop house]

Unfortunately, almost 1/3 of them did not seat smoothly.

i get this with starline brass (on the hard side) and speer tnt fb bullets (pronounced pressure ring). it is annoying and i can see it on the target, side by side with fc or horn brass that seats smooth and consistent.

annealing and chamfering help. i use wilson chamber seaters exclusively, and like you have only marginal bullet insertion depth. when you figure it out, let me know!

 

[fguffey]

When seating bullets, many of them are grabbing or hanging up somehow brass so that it takes extra press force to get that bullet to move

The chatter can cause primers to flip causing them to be installed upside down.

F. Guffey

 

[chop house]

The chatter can cause primers to flip causing them to be installed upside down.

F. Guffey

welcome back. glad to see you didn't disappoint us... ???

 

[dgeesaman]

Reloaded my "B" group of brass doing all of the above plus two full strokes of a nylon case neck brush. As usual I did not see anything on the brush or dropping out of the case. I also cleaned my dies. Got a little darkness on the q-tip but nothing substantial. Neck tension is about .001 less than the other group.

This group seated much more smoothly. No rough ones and a few that just squeaked a bit while seating. So one of those two things was the crucial thing.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Dont worry about annealing- not even close on this one. A flat base bullet has a pressure ring way bigger than a BT bullet. Sometimes your seating die doesnt have enough clearance around the neck to let a flat base seat easily. Its hard to get them started straight so some kick sideways and drag when theres not enough clearance. People shoot hundreds of thousands flat bases in ppc cases every year for over 30yrs and nobody annealed. Try to get them started straighter is about your only solution. Make sure a bullet will drop into a fired case neck right out of your chamber

 

[AlNyhus]

Another thing to try: remove the seating stem and drop the bullet straight down. Then try seating and see if that helps. -Al

 

[Bc'z]

In line with what Dusty is saying, try setting bullet on case holding guiding it as you gently raise ram to straighten bullet with case mouth. Dont try to seat just yet. Lower ram to check n see if things look good, now seat bullet. This should help so your not going in sideways inducing run out.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

In line with what Dusty is saying, try setting bullet on case holding guiding it as you gently raise ram to straighten bullet with case mouth. Dont try to seat just yet. Lower ram to check n see if things look good, now seat bullet. This should help so your not going in sideways inducing run out.

Hes using an inline die but the same advice applies

 

[Uncle Ed]

I fired these loads yesterday. Some measurements:
ID after firing: .2435-.2445
OD after firing: .268-.269
Neck wall thickness: .0110 to .0112. Much better than my Sako brass. Measured with a B&S #176 tubing mic on upper half only, where the bullet engages.

Brush the necks and dip in Imperial dry graphite neck lube, it is nothing more than finely ground carbon.

Then use a expander die and make the inside diameter uniform, this will also smear a new coating of carbon inside the case necks.

Below Peterson brass talks about bullet seating and their neck coating to lower seating friction.

Peterson Has New Coating
https://www.petersoncartridge.com/about/technical-articles/93-liquid-chamfer

You could also try Hornady One Shot inside the case necks it is a "dry" film case lube.

 

[dgeesaman]

Dont worry about annealing- not even close on this one. A flat base bullet has a pressure ring way bigger than a BT bullet. Sometimes your seating die doesnt have enough clearance around the neck to let a flat base seat easily. Its hard to get them started straight so some kick sideways and drag when theres not enough clearance. People shoot hundreds of thousands flat bases in ppc cases every year for over 30yrs and nobody annealed. Try to get them started straighter is about your only solution. Make sure a bullet will drop into a fired case neck right out of your chamber

Dug into that, now that I understand what a pressure ring is. Berger Column comes in at .2427 on the body and .2434 across the bottom. Berger WEB BR comes in at .2429 on the body and .2433 across the bottom. I can see how that would not be helpful.

I tried a bullet in several fired cases. They were a very close slip fit except one that wasn't willing and probably line-line.

My inline die is a Neil Jones, which features an interchangeable shoulder/neck bushing. As luck (and my own sloppiness) would have it, my first set of loads was done with a .272 bushing and the second set with a .268 bushing. (The .272 is intended for Lapua brass with .013 necks). With this brass being .265/.266 loaded, one should have been better for runout and the other should have given plenty of clearance. As it were, neither bushing eliminated the hard seating.

In line with what Dusty is saying, try setting bullet on case holding guiding it as you gently raise ram to straighten bullet with case mouth. Dont try to seat just yet. Lower ram to check n see if things look good, now seat bullet. This should help so your not going in sideways inducing run out.

With the Neil Jones die bushed .002" over, I find this to be highly unlikely. If it helps I can measure runout on a few to see if there is any correlation between runout and the ones that don't seat smoothly.

Another thing to try: remove the seating stem and drop the bullet straight down. Then try seating and see if that helps. -Al

I did a couple that way but it's worth another go, thanks.

Brush the necks and dip in Imperial dry graphite neck lube, it is nothing more than finely ground carbon.
Then use a expander die and make the inside diameter uniform, this will also smear a new coating of carbon inside the case necks.
Below Peterson brass talks about bullet seating and their neck coating to lower seating friction.
Peterson Has New Coating
https://www.petersoncartridge.com/about/technical-articles/93-liquid-chamfer
You could also try Hornady One Shot inside the case necks it is a "dry" film case lube.

I've considered lubes but for now I'm holding that as a last resort. If my issue is brass prep or a mechanical cause, I don't want the lubricant to band-aid over my error.

Thanks,

David

 

[mike06]

Uncle Ed I am reloading 308 and do not use a expander die my question is mandrel size .307 and allow for a little brass spring back or a .306? I do anneal after each firing use a K&M press with a Wilson seating die. Have been reloading over 25 years but just got the K&M and Wilson setup. Also use Peterson Brass. All other tools Redding Bushing dies and body die.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Uncle Ed I am reloading 308 and do not use a expander die my question is mandrel size .307 and allow for a little brass spring back or a .306? I do anneal after each firing use a K&M press with a Wilson seating die. Have been reloading over 25 years but just got the K&M and Wilson setup. Also use Peterson Brass. All other tools Redding Bushing dies and body die.

Some shooters are using .003 to .004 neck tension, there are many articles here at Accurate Shooter on this subject.

Example below, many AR15 reloaders are using the Lyman type "M" expander with .003 neck tension. They also bump the case mouth on to the .226 step to lower seating effort/friction and reduce neck runout. This lets the bullet skip past any rough deburring at the case mouth. And add a little powdered graphite and the inside of the neck is slicker than snot on a door knob.

Redding now recommends to size the neck .001 to .002 smaller than the loaded neck diameter.

Redding also recommends to use their expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more. Meaning if you do not neck turn then use a expander to push the defects and thickness variations to the outside of the neck.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Concentricity & Bushing Dies
From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse.

Our current recommendation, is to select a bushing that is .001 to .002" smaller than the loaded cartridge neck diameter. For example, if the neck diameter of your loaded cartridges is .248", start with a .247 or .246" bushing. We've had to change our initial recommendation, because some of cartridge cases manufactured today have neck walls near the minimum SAAMI thickness. When using brass which is at the thinner end of the SAAMI spec. we have found the bushing which is .001" smaller will provide the best result.

To create precision reloads, you must start with cases of good quality. They should all be from the same manufacturer and lot number. A good measure of case quality is how uniform the neck wall thickness is. Cases with uniform neck wall thickness, will be of uniform thickness all the way to the base. This is important for accuracy, as the cases will expand uniformly upon firing, and contract uniformly when sized. Neck turning helps, but it's only a partial cure, as you can't turn the case wall all the way to the base. The Redding Case Neck Gauge is the preferred instrument for checking neck wall thickness and uniformity. Also note that the concentricity of a fired case only indicates how concentric your firearm's chamber is. It provides you with little or no information on the quality of the cases you're using.

 

[cw308]

mike06
I went down that road of bushing dies playing with neck tension , runout , neck sizing , partial neck sizing . Went back to the basics , full length sizing with the expander ball , minimum sizing by using the Redding Competition shellholder set of 5 , lube inside of the necks before , sizing . I clean my brass , wet tumble , use the Imperial dry neck lube that's listed above when seating , it stops any bonding effect between the bulle and the case neck . Find a good powder charge and a good bulle seating length . My 308 loads shoot better then any Match store ammo . Heating the necks , neck turning , bushing dies , for me just added another thing to cause more problems then what it's worth to try to improve the round .

 

[mike06]

mike06
I went down that road of bushing dies playing with neck tension , runout , neck sizing , partial neck sizing . Went back to the basics , full length sizing with the expander ball , minimum sizing by using the Redding Competition shellholder set of 5 , lube inside of the necks before , sizing . I clean my brass , wet tumble , use the Imperial dry neck lube that's listed above when seating , it stops any bonding effect between the bulle and the case neck . Find a good powder charge and a good bulle seating length . My 308 loads shoot better then any Match store ammo . Heating the necks , neck turning , bushing dies , for me just added another thing to cause more problems then what it's worth to try to improve the round .

CW308 I am at that same point going down the road. Sometimes I feel like I am over thinking the process. I have all the same redding equipment shell holders micrometer bushing dies you name it. Some guys say pull the ball expander back thru the bushing some say don't. I do turn my necks even though I don't have a custom chamber barrel. Thanks

 

[mike06]

Some shooters are using .003 to .004 neck tension, there are many articles here at Accurate Shooter on this subject.

Example below, many AR15 reloaders are using the Lyman type "M" expander with .003 neck tension. They also bump the case mouth on to the .226 step to lower seating effort/friction and reduce neck runout. This lets the bullet skip past any rough deburring at the case mouth. And add a little powdered graphite and the inside of the neck is slicker than snot on a door knob.

Redding now recommends to size the neck .001 to .002 smaller than the loaded neck diameter.

Redding also recommends to use their expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more. Meaning if you do not neck turn then use a expander to push the defects and thickness variations to the outside of the neck.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Concentricity & Bushing Dies
From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse.

Our current recommendation, is to select a bushing that is .001 to .002" smaller than the loaded cartridge neck diameter. For example, if the neck diameter of your loaded cartridges is .248", start with a .247 or .246" bushing. We've had to change our initial recommendation, because some of cartridge cases manufactured today have neck walls near the minimum SAAMI thickness. When using brass which is at the thinner end of the SAAMI spec. we have found the bushing which is .001" smaller will provide the best result.

To create precision reloads, you must start with cases of good quality. They should all be from the same manufacturer and lot number. A good measure of case quality is how uniform the neck wall thickness is. Cases with uniform neck wall thickness, will be of uniform thickness all the way to the base. This is important for accuracy, as the cases will expand uniformly upon firing, and contract uniformly when sized. Neck turning helps, but it's only a partial cure, as you can't turn the case wall all the way to the base. The Redding Case Neck Gauge is the preferred instrument for checking neck wall thickness and uniformity. Also note that the concentricity of a fired case only indicates how concentric your firearm's chamber is. It provides you with little or no information on the quality of the cases you're using.

Thanks Ed for the info just got to think this thing over. Trying to gear up to shoot a 1000 this spring or after deer season. A bucket list thing.

 

[cw308]

mike06
What I've read if your neck turning , the outside diameter is true to the inside diameter of the case neck so you can eliminate the expander ball , I'm not neck turning so To square up he diameters your best to size with the ball , l lube the inside of the necks with a Q tip the ball goes through with very little resistance , I also don't lock down the stem and it self centers as it goes through the necks , runout is .001 using the standard RCBS Full Length die nothing fancy . I tried the S type bushing die to try .001 and .002 neck tension , didn't change anything on the target but the runout was horrible sizing the same way with the expander carbide ball . Standard is giving a .003 tension and using the dry lube in the necks the bullets seat very smooth. I also am shooting a 308 Rem 700 blueprinted Rock Creek M24 5R barrel , Jewell trigger set at 10 ounces . Just love shooting it , not even interested in shooting any other rifle . It's my one an only for the last 12 years . I'm enjoying shooting more that I'm not trying to drive myself nuts in tweaking every little thing . Fine a round that works , stick with it an work on form , groups are more consistent and get back to the joy of shooting .