Very high seating force

[hogan]

Cases were cleaned inside with a nylon brush and outside with balistol. I inside and outside chamfer all cases with a VLD tool.

Nylon brush? Supposed to put some mica on that to get a dry lube effect. Nylon otherwise has No Effect on brass. Might try a chamber brush which will smooth the brass neck ID.

What does outside lube on neck have to do with bullet seating force?

There is no VLD outside diameter chamfer tool, nor is one necessary.

 

[mao0720]

Boyd asked how I cleaned my cases so I gave him the information he asked for. Using balistol to clean (not as a lube) the outside of cases and using a nylon brush to clean case necks are well established practices in reloading. You do not have to use mica on a nylon brush for it to have an effect. I realize that there is no outside VLD tool I meant chamfered inside with a VLD and ouside with a standard ouside chamfering tool.

 

[bigedp51]

Actually, doing a small amount of expanding after or during sizing (.001 or so) may be beneficial.

Boyd, could you "expand" on this. ;D

Really are you saying that using a expander mandrel is beneficial, or just any slight expansion helps and why? I'm not sure of your meaning.

 

[bigedp51]

Mason O

I like all my Forster full length dies with the high mounted expanders, because they produce so little runout.

Below is a link about honing the necks of Forster dies and is a good read.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

Note to all, the main page of Accurate Shooter is a wealth of information.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ed,
Years ago, a prominent long range benchrest, shooter, organizer, and vendor told me that he has a set of expanding mandrels in half thousandth increments that he uses as his last sizing step, because he felt that it gave him more consistent results. Knowing his experience and success, I took it as one of those tips that you will not find in any published literature. Obviously, for this sort of thing to matter, everything else related to the accuracy of a particular rifle would have to be in top shape, since accuracy is a weakest link thing.
Boyd

 

[bigedp51]

Ed,
Years ago, a prominent long range benchrest, shooter, organizer, and vendor told me that he has a set of expanding mandrels in half thousandth increments that he uses as his last sizing step, because he felt that it gave him more consistent results. Knowing his experience and success, I took it as one of those tips that you will not find in any published literature. Obviously, for this sort of thing to matter, everything else related to the accuracy of a particular rifle would have to be in top shape, since accuracy is a weakest link thing.
Boyd

Thank you Boyd, I have been experimenting with different type expanders and one thing I tried was using the Sinclair expander and mandrels just before seating the bullets. Now if I wouldn't drink so much coffee and if my eyes were 21 years old again I could tell you what worked best.

 

[BoydAllen]

When you use the Sinclair expander as you have described, do you notice any difference in the uniformity of feel of bullet seating force?

On a related manner, have you discovered the difference in seating force between cases that have sat around for a couple of weeks after sizing, before bullets were seated, and identical cases sized just before seating? It is easy to feel this difference, especially when seating with an arbor press.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

When you use the Sinclair expander as you have described, do you notice any difference in the uniformity of feel of bullet seating force?

On a related manner, have you discovered the difference in seating force between cases that have sat around for a couple of weeks after sizing, before bullets were seated, and identical cases sized just before seating? It is easy to feel this difference, especially when seating with an arbor press.

Yes to both. I make my own expander mandrels and run all my cases over them before seating. I have found that, for me, it greatly reduces the variability in the amount of force required to seat bullets. On the other hand, I've never really done any testing to tell if I can see the difference between an E.S. of 5psi (during seating) vs. an E.S. of 15 or 20psi on paper. I just go with the assumption that less variability is better and since I can control it, I do.

Once I've sized and mandrel-d (is that word?) the necks, I don't let the cases sit for very long before dumping powder and seating bullets.

 

[amlevin]

When you use the Sinclair expander as you have described, do you notice any difference in the uniformity of feel of bullet seating force?

Can't speak to other's experience but when I use my Sinclair expander mandrel as a last step, seating pressure sure FEELS uniform. I seat with an RCBS Summit press with the short handle installed, using only finger pressure for best feel.

Even with turned necks (just to even up thickness) I found that there was a palpable difference in seating pressures but not after a final expansion of .001" or less.

 

[bigedp51]

Boyd Allen

I was experimenting on a RCBS .223 FL die with two different diameter RCBS expanders, a Forster expander assembly, a Sinclair expander die and a Lyman type "M" expander. And some of the necks had been turned and all of this was for checking runout on the sized case and then after bullet seating. So there was varied seating forces but the biggest difference was between a RCBS expander that was .002 smaller in diameter than the Sinclair expander die.

And yes I saw a difference between cases that sat from months to years and then using Sinclair expander die. All of the cases had been cleaned, resized, prepped several years ago when I had been given three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass fired by our local police.

And it was when I started using these older "seasoned" cases I saw a very noticeable difference. "BUT" these were also Remington cases with thicker necks that had sat the longest.

Right now I have over 100 cases siting that the Lyman type "M" expander had been used on and need to check seating and runout on.

NOTE: I'm loading for two different AR15 rifles and a .223 bolt action with a 26 inch heavy barrel and all are stock off the shelf factory rifles. And almost all testing at the range has been with the AR15 A2 HBAR and a scoped AR15 carbine with a 1 to 3 power scope. And I'm fighting with cataracts which makes things a little fuzzy. So be kind and don't ask about group size. :'( But the best groups are with the bolt action when the coffee is held to minimum.

 

[bigedp51]

When you use the Sinclair expander as you have described, do you notice any difference in the uniformity of feel of bullet seating force?

On a related manner, have you discovered the difference in seating force between cases that have sat around for a couple of weeks after sizing, before bullets were seated, and identical cases sized just before seating? It is easy to feel this difference, especially when seating with an arbor press.

Yes to both. I make my own expander mandrels and run all my cases over them before seating. I have found that, for me, it greatly reduces the variability in the amount of force required to seat bullets. On the other hand, I've never really done any testing to tell if I can see the difference between an E.S. of 5psi (during seating) vs. an E.S. of 15 or 20psi on paper. I just go with the assumption that less variability is better and since I can control it, I do.

Once I've sized and mandrel-d (is that word?) the necks, I don't let the cases sit for very long before dumping powder and seating bullets.

That's what you get for using the Lee collet die, you need to expand the necks and iron out all the wrinkles.

Pavlovian test # 269
Rang bell and exposed subject to funny visual image
Awaiting results from Admin and future in forum. ;D

P.S. CatShooter made me do it.................honest. :

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I do it regardless of whether I'm using an LCD or not. I actually think it's more beneficial with bushing dies. I probably wouldn't bother with the mandrel part of the process with an LCD, if I made a custom LCD mandrel in the size I want, but I haven't done that yet since I already had made an expander mandrel previously (when I was still using a bushing die).

One of these days I won't have to be constantly nanny-ing the forum for you jokers and I'll have time to make one! :

 

[JHardy]

Boyd has given some very good information on the use of mandrels. As a little additional info on using mandrels is that you need to be careful that the case mouth does not hit the top of the die. You might not even notice it when it happens and thatis the danger. If it hits, it will somewhat crimp the case mouth and cause hard seating.

Regards,
Jim Hardy

 

[jsthntn247]

I just put together a 6.5x47L. Shot it for the first time earlier this week with pretty good accuracy. I was loading up some rounds tonight, to continue testing, with once fire FL sized brass sized with forster standard FL die and my seating force was in The 130lb range as measured on my K&M arbor press. This is incredibly high to me since my 308 loads usually seat in the 30-40 lb range. My question is, is this normal seating force or should I be worried about it? And, is there anything I can do about the seating force short of replacing my die? Thanks in advance for the help!
Mason

I sent my 243 Forster die back to them to hone out the neck because your necks are so small after coming out of their dies, you can stuff your brass up a gnats ass. This is the reason you are getting 130lbs of seating pressure just like I was. I got a .001 oversized ball and still was getting 85lbs of seating pressure. They did not hone my neck out the first time I sent it in because sizing it down .010 under fired diameter didn't seem excessive to them. They now have my die back, as of yesterday, with a very nice note and a phone call asking to hone the thing out to .002 under loaded diameter like I asked the first time. Send it in and asked to be honed out .002 under your loaded neck diameter and get an oversized expander and it will fix your problems. You should not have to do this but I'm beginning to believe their incompetent up there.

 

[bigedp51]

I do it regardless of whether I'm using an LCD or not. I actually think it's more beneficial with bushing dies. I probably wouldn't bother with the mandrel part of the process with an LCD, if I made a custom LCD mandrel in the size I want, but I haven't done that yet since I already had made an expander mandrel previously (when I was still using a bushing die).

One of these days I won't have to be constantly nanny-ing the forum for you jokers and I'll have time to make one! :

You need a moderator here who is a cross between Attilla the Hun, Wyatt Earp and a tight jawed teaching Nun at a Catholic School with a heavy duty ruler.
(But with a extremely funny warped sense of humor) :

 

[bigedp51]

I sent my 243 Forster die back to them to hone out the neck because your necks are so small after coming out of their dies, you can stuff your brass up a gnats ***. This is the reason you are getting 130lbs of seating pressure just like I was. I got a .001 oversized ball and still was getting 85lbs of seating pressure. They did not hone my neck out the first time I sent it in because sizing it down .010 under fired diameter didn't seem excessive to them. They now have my die back, as of yesterday, with a very nice note and a phone call asking to hone the thing out to .002 under loaded diameter like I asked the first time. Send it in and asked to be honed out .002 under your loaded neck diameter and get an oversized expander and it will fix your problems. You should not have to do this but I'm beginning to believe their incompetent up there.

Or you can buy the Forster expander and spindle unit in a RCBS die with a bigger neck.

I've said this many times, we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world. And I have seven .223/5.56 dies and none of them size the case the same. The dies must work with all brands of cases with varying neck thicknesses. In post #23 I posted a Accurate Shooter link where a person has three custom neck honed Forster dies made for this reason.

 

[Joe R]

Jay Christopherson said:

I make my own expander mandrels and run all my cases over them before seating. I have found that, for me, it greatly reduces the variability in the amount of force required to seat bullets.

Nailed it.

 

[BoydAllen]

;D

 

[hogan]

Only 2 things cause High Seating Effort/Force

-Too much powder in case

-Too narrow ctg neck, or maybe over sized bullet.
(.267 bullet in a .264 ctg, .323/.319, .227/224 etc) That will have "exciting" results if chambered and fired!


Guess the die could be sloppy or mislabeled, overly large seating stem etc,


Still kicking this one around????

 

[BoydAllen]

Back in the day, I had a 788 Remington chambered in 30-30, that I bought a set of RCBS dies for. The neck of the (one piece) FL die was so small that even though the expander was the right size the neck would snap back to a size that was so small that showed an extreme step in the loaded neck, right where the shank of the bullet came to. RCBS was good about it, and took care of the problem immediately, and even fitted the die with a high expander ball like they used on their competition dies. My point is that even though your expander is the right diameter, if the neck of the die is small enough, you can end up with a problem anyway. Of course this will depend on the brass somewhat. I was using Winchester brass ( I think.) that has the reputation of being somewhat springier than other brands of American brass.