I will have my buddy doing a lot of practice shooting in all kinds of hunting situations. He is pretty green. He killed a doe deer last year with my rem 742 30-06, but the deer still ran off 70 yds just like most deer I've killed with that rifle.... but now... I'm wanting him to shoot this 6.5 CM with a load that will not necessarily pass through both sides, but will actually dump all it's energy in the lung area to cause the deer to dump on the spot.
6.5 for deer...2600 fps <<< VS >>> 2800 fps...???
- Thread starter daniel brothers
- Start date
From my experience after killing a few hundred white tail deer over the past 48 years of which 15 years I did crop damage control on a huge farm where between me and my buddie we took 100 deer each year. Bullet placement is the key. Even with a FMJ bullet going say your 2600 fps if you put it in the high shoulder broadside a deer will be DRT 99% of the time. Scapula being hit starts shock effect, bullet causes bone fragments to start flying which helps punch the lungs. Bullet goes through top of one lung then spine (CNS) then usually other lung. The spine CNS is the DRT maker. Non CNS shot is a crap shoot as to DRT no matter the caliber or bullet construction. I have had deer run between two and three hundred yards from behind the shoulder shots that sloshed on the inside when found. Looked like you had put everything in the chest in a blender. I have also shot deer in the lungs with a 22lr and had them just flinch or jump a little mostly from the sound of the shot that will stand there for just a few seconds then start to stager or sway and fall down and die right there which is a DRT shot.
Thanks. That is a great illustration. I killed some on a permit a couple of years ago using a .223/5.56 and the high shoulder shot using a 77 gr SMK worked great - they dropped in there tracks. But all were 100 yards or less.
A high shoulder shot does not guarantee that the deer will drop right where it is standing. It will go through the lungs depending on angle and shot deer can still run away until it bleeds to death. The heart actually lies lower .
True, but I prefer the high shoulder shot, or neck shot to about anything for my damage control work. A deer hit in the high shoulder, is usually laying right there. A lung hit, many times necessitates a blood trailing session and I don't like them in the tangled trees and swamps next to the fields where I shoot. If you hit bone on the high shoulder of a deer, it is going nowhere and if you are a bit forward, or back, you usually will still hit spine. I like lung shots in more open country.
Very true. I have only used 30-06 for hunting for more than 50 years and have never had issues with having to track deer in west Texas. As a child my father taught me to visualize the deer in the following manner: From top of the shoulder to the bottom of the shoulder find a halfway point, than from the halfway point to the bottom of the shoulder try placing your shot some where in the middle and you will get the heart and lungs. Basically he was describing what I call the elbow or bend of the front leg.
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I get 100% DRT when shooting on the shoulder with my 22-243AI with 80 gr amax. They are moving at 3500 fps. It only penetrates one shoulder and blows up the insides. It's only lung shot kill on a doe at 40 yds blew more blood out the other side like I had NEVER seen in my life. The bushes were painted with blood 12 ft on the other side, and she still ran 50yds. I couldn't hit the shoulder because of a tree in the way.
I can't assume that my buddy will make pin point accurate hits, so I have to cover all my bases for aiming as close to center mass lung/shoulder area as possible... But at the same time, I need a bullet that will give the most massive SHOCK to that area.
I can't assume that my buddy will make pin point accurate hits, so I have to cover all my bases for aiming as close to center mass lung/shoulder area as possible... But at the same time, I need a bullet that will give the most massive SHOCK to that area.
longbow
Silver $$ Contributor
Read my 284 Hunting Rifle Post right below this post. Using A quality bullet...Barnes..... and A good lung hit,total pass thru.My loads at 2850 and there not going anywhere and these are ELK. I may be selling my 6.5 Grendel Cooper bolt gun, An honest safe 200 yd deer gun...with Barnes bullets.
This...it is only half the equation if you are considering velocity alone...bullet construction is the "other half" and that is what sets the max and min window JRS is referring to above.
As far as the SST bullet goes, I have used them successfully. I hunt mostly deer and black bear. That bullet is definitely a killer, but as far as "stays together", it doesn't for me. With every animal I have killed the SST bullet exploded and left very fine little pieces at the most. I have yet to find any large pieces of lead or copper and I am only shooting a 7mm-08, so there si no "hyper-velocity" involved. The rifle wont do it.
Might want to look a Nosler Accu-Bond Long Range bullets. They have a thin jacket up front to reliably expand at longer ranges or lesser velocities.
In my experience, the 2800 load will go further than the 2600, Shooting the Load that you can place the best.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Nosler accubonds expand violently, but lead stays with the jacket, mostly.
ON the SST, I go one step heavier than I would use on a std cup and core bullet for example
6mm -95g SST are tough, no need for a larger bullet
6.5-go 140g instead of 129 unless you are shooting a grendel
7mm- go 154g sst instead of 139
30 cal- go 165-180g instead of 150g
I learned some hard lessons. I love the SST in how they expand and turn the innards to jello.
The 95g in 243 is unbelievable on deer, and my friend in New Zealand says that the 95g in his 243 is all that he will use on those large deer.
The 7mm 154 is very impressive, accurate also. 7mm, 162g sst is tough, two friends went to Africa and killed 6 plains game each including Eland and Kudu, all DRT.
30 caliber-165g SST and 180g have proved awesome on deer and Hogs here.
I am hoping that the 140g SST will get the job done on hogs and deer as they are sure accurate in my Remington Creed, like Dan's.
We hunt in a jungle, get off the road or path and rattlesnakes and water moccasins may eat you alive, and were Dan hunts the gators may get you! Mosquitoes here have racing stripes on their legs!
ON the SST, I go one step heavier than I would use on a std cup and core bullet for example
6mm -95g SST are tough, no need for a larger bullet
6.5-go 140g instead of 129 unless you are shooting a grendel
7mm- go 154g sst instead of 139
30 cal- go 165-180g instead of 150g
I learned some hard lessons. I love the SST in how they expand and turn the innards to jello.
The 95g in 243 is unbelievable on deer, and my friend in New Zealand says that the 95g in his 243 is all that he will use on those large deer.
The 7mm 154 is very impressive, accurate also. 7mm, 162g sst is tough, two friends went to Africa and killed 6 plains game each including Eland and Kudu, all DRT.
30 caliber-165g SST and 180g have proved awesome on deer and Hogs here.
I am hoping that the 140g SST will get the job done on hogs and deer as they are sure accurate in my Remington Creed, like Dan's.
We hunt in a jungle, get off the road or path and rattlesnakes and water moccasins may eat you alive, and were Dan hunts the gators may get you! Mosquitoes here have racing stripes on their legs!
I hit many deer with the 7mm 140 Accubond. 3150fps MV. Got a tiny exit hole with behind shoulder shots. Sometimes could barely find the exit. Insides were usually mush and the deer usually ran a short distance. Never fully figured out what the bullet was doing at impact. Not expanding or breaking apart?
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
CTK, I meant Nosler Long Range Accubonds, sorry for that omision.
I assume you probably have but have you hunted with smaller caliber high velocity rounds like a 257 Weatherby/264 WM? I've never had a burning desire to use one but occasionally come across one for sale and have been tempted to give one a whirl.
Your correct the barnes ttsx/tsx are excellent for the use described, its a safe 300 yard load pretty much, if your sending them at 2850 ish fps.
You dont mention if you use the TSX or TTSX.
The TTSX is a better bullet overall as it's wider 'hollow point' and the platic tip, makes it expand more reliably and violently.
ELK are larger and the target has more resistance so the bullets will expand more reliably, and work better on the elk then a deer witch is lighter built.
Let those bulets down in the 2200 fps or lower, on a light bodied deer and you will start seeing delayed kills due to lack of expansion.
Lung shoot it and it will run further then you will like.
The 120/130 ttsx at 3200+ witch is possible from a 284 with a suitable powder, will make that a safe 450-500 yard deer gun.
I have used a lot of 150 TTSX from a 308 win at 2950 fps shot a lot of deer with it, but it's not suitable for use beyond 300 meters really.
It's a very stout bullet and shoulder shots on large moose even, are pass through never found a bullet.
Tried the 150 TSX back when they was new, and have since stayed with the TTSX version, simply because they expand more reliably from my experience.
The 130 gr is a much better bullet though simply because the 308 can't drive the 150 fast enough to have good effect beyond 300 m on lighter game.
And at 3150 fps the 130 gr TTSX has a expands a lot more violently witch leads to faster and cleaner kills.
So using a lower bullet weight then 'normal', and pushing them fast is the way these bullets really shine on game performance.
And of course you don't find fragments and lead everywhere, and they tend to be a lot less messy.
Good information Ares.... I guess the best bullet would be the 120 TTSX for the 6.5 CM
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The Accubond is a bonded bullet. It has expanded that is the reason the internals are mush. The expansion most often has been a full expansion two thirds to three fourths the length of the bullet with the lead still bonded to the jacket that has folded back along the sides of what remains of the shank of the bullet and retaining about 70% of original weight then when it exits it does not make a huge exit hole like the blow up fragmenting bullets do. In other words the bullet has reacted like it was supposed to. I have used the 130 gr AB in my 264 Win mag at 3350 fps and have shot over two dozen deer from 25 to a touch over 500 yards and the bullet has reacted about the same way. Goes in takes out the vitals and exits small hole but ALL OF THEM have been DRT. I have only recovered one bullet from a buck shot at 111 yards almost facing me with a slight left shoulder angle. Bullet entered front edge of shoulder went length wise and when cutting up the meat was found in the right ham against the smashed right ball joint. Bullet was a text book mushroom and recovered weight was 86 grs. just like what I stated above.
Another little bit of experience I will pass on to you is about the 7mm Rem mag. I did crop damage control for 15 years on a huge farm where my buddie and I had to take 100 deer a year. We got to experiment with a lot of calibers and bullets. In our experience the 7mm Rem mag was one of the worst calibers no matter what bullet was used for deer running off a ways after taking the hit. I can't understand it or figure out why but it did for both of us. When you would open a deer up it's inside were mush looking like a blinder had been turned loose inside but they still ran sometimes over 100 yards. Take same shot with say a 25-06 with most any 100 to 120 gr bullet and DRT. We did seem to get less runners from shots beyond 200 yards with the 7mm maybe it has something to do with too much speed of the bullet on these lighter body game. Weird!
I had essentially the same results with my 280ai. Heart and lungs would be partially liquified and the whitetail deer would run 50-100y. This was with Accubonds. Ballistic tips and Berger’s produced large exit and less internal damage. Deer also ran less. I once shot a large buck facing me with a fast moving 140 Accubond at 70ish yards. Deer ran 100y and landed in a deep banked creek. Almost never got the deer out of creek. Insides were like a bomb went off and still managed to run. I gave up on the Accubond that day. Like your experiences, it made no rational sense. I am going to woods hunt this year some with a Marlin 30/30. Looking forward to it for something different. Plan to try two cheap factory loads and call it a day with the winner. I mainly now hunt with a 6.5x47 and see no drop off in terminal performance vs. my many 280ai’s. Go figure. Learning more every year....
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Shoot what is accurate. Shot placement trumps 200 fps all day every day.
I think one of you guys are saying the AccBound is good and the other is saying no... but the real sense I'm getting is to shoot light bullets... fast... right..? If you guys were going to the store today to buy the best DRT bullet for the 6.5 Creedmoor... which one would it be... and what speed would you run it? I know there is probably a good balance there somewhere. thanks..Dan
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