Electronic targets/ no hit

[Jdne5b]

Error: I have four sensors out. Do not use me.

Error: Score not valid. Maintenance needed.


Error: You shot my cable.


If error shows up, don't allow score to be accepted.

Technical people are designing technical things to be operated by non technical people. I see it everyday.

The MD may know these things, but he isn't the person holding my scoring pad.

Exactly. The target should have never allowed itself to be shot on with 4 (any # imo) sensors not working. If Hexta can see sensors not working, why isnt that info available on a tablet screen?

 

[jsthntn247]

Thank you all for your patience on this Forum topic!

We take these situations very, very seriously! Someone has said “we have our umbilical cord tied to each target”. Because of our 3 time zones, and weekend activity, our response was too slow. We apologize for that. Before we responded with anything, we needed a clear concise analysis of the event. We are not divine nor are our people who manufacture our targets. “There is a first for everything”.

goBallistic and Hex Systems’ position is that every shooter, and every Range Officer should have complete confidence in reported scores (for Records) as HEXTA reports them, from range to range, from coast to coast, and from match to match. There is no room for compromise on that! If we are not there, we should not be in the market place.

As has been stated in a previous post that we proclaim that we “Don’t Miss a Shot”. If there is proper power in the target, antennas, and servers, that will be true. There are 8 independent sensors (ears) listening for all sound or pressure waves. Even if a bullet strikes the wooden frame, the sensors pick up a bullet strike and reports it. We stand by that claim! Out of millions of shots on target, we have not missed a pressure wave.

Wade (XTR) communicated that his score did not reflect his marksmanship. He was right about that. For that we sincerely apologize!

In Wades situation 4 of the 8 sensors were not functioning. We haven’t heard yet if there are wires shot out or sensors shot out. Either way they will be fixed. Foot note. Shooting out a sensor does not shut down the target, but it will reduce precision. Check out goBallistic

The HEXTA MATCH-GRADE targets begins capturing a debug file the moment it is powered up which can be examined after the match. Dmitri Kazakov the owner of Hex Systems did that, and this is his report.

“1. Target 6 has only 4 sensors functioning (Sensors 1,3,5,8)

2. During Wade Fillingame shot at 10:39:30 target reported error message: "Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately". This message was acknowledged by the scorer by pressing OK button. Please note this message is displayed on scorer monitors only. This message means that target did detect the shot, but the sensors discrepancy is too large to determine the shot with required accuracy.

3. Someone responded to this message after 51 seconds at 10:40:21 the scorer pressed the "Miss" button instructing the system to attribute Miss to this event. Please note in user instruction such event is explained and HEX Systems’ recommend in such instances to grant to shooter another shot. (I Rick am assuming that someone made the decision to call it a “miss”. Probably because the assumption was that the target had 8 working sensors.)

As I previously mentioned the target did not miss the shot. However, the target detected the shot and did recognized that one or more sensor was affected by errors but could not resolve it, so it reported to the user as the target is designed to do. There was not sufficient data for the software to be confident in calling a shot.”

The HEXTA Match-Grade targets have a rubber sheet in front of and behind the 7 inch cavity. Additionally, those sheets are covered by a Corflute sheet, front and back as well. In front of the front sheet there is a 4’ X 4’ Corflute sheet over the center where the aiming mark is placed. So, we have tried to eliminate as much noise interference as practically possible.

Our oldest targets in Australia are 6 to 7 years old with thousands of rounds through them with original rubber. When the centers get too shot out a rubber patch is fixed in place.

The HEXTA Match-Grade target is the only E-Target with 56 data points calculating Point of Impact.

So just to summarize and clarify that some of the reported Posts above in this topic ARE NOT CORRECT. The HEXTA target did NOT miss any shots. It did however NOT report a guessed Point of Impact without sufficient data as designed. That is a maintenance issue.

We apologize to those shooters for any erroneous results. Precision is the only option.

To Wade and those who do a lot of bashing without knowing the facts or understand the technology.

Number one, the rumors you started were not true. That damages the reputation of all E-Targets, Vendors, and dumbs down the direction of the sport by reducing the sports expectations. That is “false news”.

To be clear: In your case you had 4 providing triangulations, or data point to declare Point of Impact. As many as all other E-Targets, but it is NOT enough data to satisfy Hex’s patented software to declare correct shot position. Therefore, the program correctly declared "Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately” That’s better than blindly declaring an erroneous Point of impact that is accepted without knowledge of the truth and accepts a Gross Error.

At that point, and as indicated in the operator’s manual, the RO needs to be involved and as we recommend another shot awarded. Therefore the “Miss” should not have been awarded, and the equipment checked out.

Forum quote "The system has a flaw. If there were sensors down the system should have notified the operator on startup" Another wrong statement NB

That is exactly what HEXTA does. The start up sequence indicates tests the and declares their functionality.

The HEXTA Match Grade target is a mature product with close to 200 targets in Australia and the USA being used in 40 plus clubs, and over 100 shooters weekly.

Thanks for your patience on this. I’d be happy to answer any further questions Rick

Will you check the log for their last 1,000 yard match. I believe we were on target 7 but it might have been 6. I was getting that same error message on well over half my shots. My bullet does not go subsonic until 1275 yards, so the target should have been picking up a majority of my shots as it was the other competitors. We talked about it afterward and concluded that it had to be the steeper angle of my bullets approaching the target or that my "sonic crack" was not as audible as the others on my target. I was told the bullets were blowing up or accuracy wasn't sufficient, even though I shot a 592-30x at 600 yards with the same ammo two weeks before. I just would like to know what would cause my bullets not to be picked up when others were.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Will you check the log for their last 1,000 yard match. I believe we were on target 7 but it might have been 6. I was getting that same error message on well over half my shots. My bullet does not go subsonic until 1275 yards, QUOTE]

Just a foot note. The HEXTA target will pick up sub-sonic projectiles.

 

[sdean]

I really don't see the problem. There are plenty of ranges to shoot with pull targets. They would be glad to have you shoot there.

 

[SDDasher]

After painfully reading all five (thus far) pages on this thread I glean the following: 1. Electronics Targets are liked by some and not-so-much by others for various reasons. 2. Electronic Targets should be properly maintained to afford peak performance. 3. Routine analysis of performance to include malfunctions/errors should be conducted by both provider and user.
I’m in the boat with BobL. I like the convenience and speed (if the match is run properly) of Electronic Target systems. Last time I checked no one was holding my family hostage to make me go shoot at any given range using any given target system. So in closing; 4. The choice is YOURS which target system you shoot. JMHO.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Error: I have four sensors out. Do not use me.

Error: Score not valid. Maintenance needed.


Error: You shot my cable.

Error: I am unfulfilled. I wish I were a paper target.


If error shows up, don't allow score to be accepted.

Technical people are designing technical things to be operated by non technical people. I see it everyday.

The MD may know these things, but he isn't the person holding my scoring pad.

That's funny. I almost spit coffee all over the keyboard.




There's just one problem with your previous statement above, Wes. Once E-targets are installed at a specific range, the use of paper targets will generally be a thing of the past at that range, if only because of the costs involved. That means that every time an E-Target system is installed, those that choose not to shoot on them are eliminated from shooting at yet another venue. Installation of an E-target system guarantees that whomever wants to shoot at that range will either be forced to use it, or else not participate. I thought one important reason for even switching to E-targets was that they make the sport more inclusive. Doesn't seem that way from where I'm sitting.

The more time goes on, the more threads like this get posted that painfully illustrate the potential issues currently involved with the use of E-targets, the more ridiculous the whole issue seems. As I stated before, read back through this thread or any other like it to see to what lengths people are willing to go to either simply to justify the use of E-targets, or change the rules in order to adapt to the shortcomings of E-target systems, rather than the other way around. The whole issue is just a complete Gong Show.

 

[jkl]

At Ben Avery we could not have fixed target systems. Other people use the range for all types of shooting. That is why the targets are privately owned and the SMT was the most portable system for our range. ET target frames are stored at the range and are matched to your target for calibration. Everything gets put away at the end of the day and the electronics go home with the owner.

It is a Gong Show on the forums, but I enjoy shooting on E Targets. The laughter and jabs from the catwalk get moved to the back of the line. Being a sling shooter I spend most of the practice time pair firing with friends. It makes you a better shooter not being able to chase the spotter. We shoot 2 and 10 or the extreme match no sighters and 10 for record, makes you place that first shot where it belongs. If not there is a roar from the gallery.

At Ben Avery all registered matches are pulled targets and I don't complain I have a great time in the pits.

I have shot as many a 4 shooters on my SMT target and others target owners let others use there targets as well. Trying to make it where we didn't have any manual targets and no one ever complains about giving up pit duty.

A few cables have been nicked but the total damage that I know of is less than $300 for roughly 15 targets. We have lost a few antennas and no one knows why but we have upgraded to the latest updated antenna for about $100 each. Many are still using the standard issue antenna. One sensor was grazed but is still working and no yellow boxes have been shot to date.

If you shoot on my target you get the same speech "There is nothing you are going to shoot on my target that you can't afford to buy and I take credit cards".


John

 

[SDDasher]

That's funny. I almost spit coffee all over the keyboard.




There's just one problem with your previous statement above, Wes. Once E-targets are installed at a specific range, the use of paper targets will generally be a thing of the past at that range, if only because of the costs involved. That means that every time an E-Target system is installed, those that choose not to shoot on them are eliminated from shooting at yet another venue. Installation of an E-target system guarantees that whomever wants to shoot at that range will either be forced to use it, or else not participate. I thought one important reason for even switching to E-targets was that they make the sport more inclusive. Doesn't seem that way from where I'm sitting.

The more time goes on, the more threads like this get posted that painfully illustrate the potential issues currently involved with the use of E-targets, the more ridiculous the whole issue seems. As I stated before, read back through this thread or any other like it to see to what lengths people are willing to go to either simply to justify the use of E-targets, or change the rules in order to adapt to the shortcomings of E-target systems, rather than the other way around. The whole issue is just a complete Gong Show.

Ned,
Being retired, I suspect I’m in a good place with having the time and resources available to attend a number of venues regardless of the target system. If the range doesn’t fulfill their obligation to provide an adequate scoring system I have the option to go elsewhere. Traveling around I’ve observed many nomads like myself enjoying various different ranges from coast to coast. It’s all part of the attraction to the sport.
I was taught by my elders to vote with my wallet and feet when it came to providers of services. That lesson has stood the test of time in my estimation.
And Ned, in case no one has told you, life is a complete Gong Show, so relaxe and enjoy it with the rest of us.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ned,
Being retired, I suspect I’m in a good place with having the time and resources available to attend a number of venues regardless of the target system. If the range doesn’t fulfill their obligation to provide an adequate scoring system I have the option to go elsewhere. Traveling around I’ve observed many nomads like myself enjoying various different ranges from coast to coast. It’s all part of the attraction to the sport.
I was taught by my elders to vote with my wallet and feet when it came to providers of services. That lesson has stood the test of time in my estimation.
And Ned, in case no one has told you, life is a complete Gong Show, so relaxe and enjoy it with the rest of us.

Yes, this is certainly true. However, I do enjoy life better when I'm shooting at paper targets .

 

[Matt P]

So basically what some are saying is it's the ET's systems fault that the owners don't maintain them ???? The match in question, more than half the targets had sensors out. One target had 4 sensors out, another had 3, another had 2 and 3 had 1. You guys keep saying how good a shot you are so these target must have these issue prior to the match starting. If you need to blame something, how about the club holding the match ???
Matt P

 

[Bindi2]

Will you check the log for their last 1,000 yard match. I believe we were on target 7 but it might have been 6. I was getting that same error message on well over half my shots. My bullet does not go subsonic until 1275 yards, so the target should have been picking up a majority of my shots as it was the other competitors. We talked about it afterward and concluded that it had to be the steeper angle of my bullets approaching the target or that my "sonic crack" was not as audible as the others on my target. I was told the bullets were blowing up or accuracy wasn't sufficient, even though I shot a 592-30x at 600 yards with the same ammo two weeks before. I just would like to know what would cause my bullets not to be picked up when others were.

1275 yds is a calculation not fact, depending on the density of the air this distance will and does vary. You could have been in the transonic zone which does funny things to sound waves.

 

[XTR]

So basically what some are saying is it's the ET's systems fault that the owners don't maintain them ???? The match in question, more than half the targets had sensors out. One target had 4 sensors out, another had 3, another had 2 and 3 had 1. You guys keep saying how good a shot you are so these target must have these issue prior to the match starting. If you need to blame something, how about the club holding the match ???
Matt P

Did you really just throw your client under the bus?

 

[rardoin]

Did you really just throw your client under the bus?

I think he told his client there was an oncoming bus and he should maintain his targets in order to avoid it.

 

[SWRichmond]

Do the manufacturers have standards for performance? What are those standards?

1. What is the accuracy standard which is guaranteed?
   
2. How many sensors are required to meet the accuracy standard?
3. Does the shooter deserve to know, via a message clearly displayed on his screen, when his target is operating in a lesser-accuracy mode? ("Your target is utilizing 5 of 8 sensors")
4. Does the shooter deserve to know, via a clear message, when the target is non-functional? Why are we finding out about this after the match?
5. Why does the system allow itself to be used when it is not capable of functioning? Why does it not tell THE COMPETITOR (and not just the MD, and apparently even then not very clearly) when a target is non-functional?
6. Why does data need to the sent to the manufacturer after a match to figure out what is going on? Answer: because the product is in Beta.

 

[Matt P]

Did you really just throw your client under the bus?

I have nothing to do with Hex other than my club owns 3 targets. I have a gun smithing business so I get talk with many shooters who use HEX, Kongsberg, Ozscore and SMT. The biggest issue with ET's are the end users.
Matt P

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

John,

then why are so many instances of malfunction being reported here?

 

[FatBoy]

John,

then why are so many instances of malfunction being reported here?

why do we spend an extra 30-40 minutes before the match showing people how to type an IP into their web browser? Their is a learning curve, and we see many(most) born before the early 60s have a hard time with these electronics, to include handling a tablet in a manner that they don't minimize or close the screen every time they touch it.

This goes for all of us who set up these for matches too. I know I can and should do better, though we don't run e-targets for (R) matches. The club has a pretty good system in place, with targets board hangers permanently attached, numbered to a specific e-target and removed/stored so they don't get modified but there is room for improvement. I think a self diagnosis during start up and instant feedback of errors would be a significant step in the right direction.

I agree, every one of these systems is in Beta with the exception of maybe the Azcor. They have been the standard for 300m shooting for as long as I can remember, though I freely admit I haven't used them personally.

 

[jsthntn247]

1275 yds is a calculation not fact, depending on the density of the air this distance will and does vary. You could have been in the transonic zone which does funny things to sound waves.

I know what I’m talking about before I post it on here and that’s a fact.

 

[jsthntn247]

So basically what some are saying is it's the ET's systems fault that the owners don't maintain them ???? The match in question, more than half the targets had sensors out. One target had 4 sensors out, another had 3, another had 2 and 3 had 1. You guys keep saying how good a shot you are so these target must have these issue prior to the match starting. If you need to blame something, how about the club holding the match ???
Matt P

That’s exactly who I blame.

 

[DirtySteve]

If the Hexa system stated it could not resolve the shot and the scorer chose to call it a miss that is not the systems fault. If any system picked up the shot but could not resolved with certainty where it struck. That is fine if the shooter gets another shot. And the rules must address this. Or the match director should have the ability to make the call as to wether the shooter gets another shot or not.