Electronic targets/ no hit

[Dmitri]

HEXTA targets do not have a membrane.

the fact is

Actually, Hexta targets most definitely have a rubber membrane on both sides of the target (front and back).

It was my understanding that the unable to resolve means it was a hit outside of the target area.

Shot outside scoring area has special different and very specific error message. I says En English - "shot outside scoring area". As well as in this situation systems informed scorer clearly in English: "Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately" and did not assigned any score.

The system has a flaw. If there were sensors down the system should have notified the operator on startup

the fact is

It does have a basic self diagnostic system, either the owners don’t know how to use it or ignored it.

That is exactly what HEXTA does. The start up sequence indicates tests the and declares their functionality.

Do the manufacturers have standards for performance? What are those standards?

It is written on the web site for a number of years. Please invest some time to study it.

1. What is the accuracy standard which is guaranteed?

Again it is on the web site. Please invest some time to study it.

2. How many sensors are required to meet the accuracy standard?

So target lost 4 sensors. It became ordinary 4-sesnor target which is used everywhere. It just have an extra feature to detect some error and report it instead just to blindly display the shots with gross error who knows how large the error is.

Also it is on the web site. Please invest some time to try to study it.

Does the shooter deserve to know, via a message clearly displayed on his screen, when his target is operating in a lesser-accuracy mode? ("Your target is utilizing 5 of 8 sensors")

The question does not make scene. HEXTA would NOT operating in less accurate mode. It has more chances that system will be unhappy with the shot and less chanced that it will recover the accurate shot. As you see even with 4 sensor shot system managed to report most shots accurately. Even with 4 sensors HEXTA still able to detect potential errors (errors do exist all the time in all targets and in all sensors - please study the case) and report it rather just plot the potentially problematic shot. It is also described on the web page.

Does the shooter deserve to know, via a message clearly displayed on his screen, when his target is operating in a lesser-accuracy mode? ("Your target is utilizing 5 of 8 sensors")

As above the question does not make scene. HEXTA was NOT operating in less accurate mode. It has more chances that systems will be unhappy with the shot.

Does the shooter deserve to know, via a clear message, when the target is non-functional? Why are we finding out about this after the match?

As above The question does not make scene.

Why does the system allow itself to be used when it is not capable of functioning? Why does it not tell THE COMPETITOR (and not just the MD, and apparently even then not very clearly) when a target is non-functional?

Repetition of the previous question.

Why does data need to the sent to the manufacturer after a match to figure out what is going on?

Because the events was not dealt properly in the first place and has to be recovered retrospectively. Please read the sequence of events which was well described in the post 37299068

Answer: because the product is in Beta.

The system has a flaw.

You know everything why you answering questions which already has been answered?
May be it would be sensible to develop some basic knowledge or at least to read what was written previously before writing you thought about something?

Error: I have four sensors out. Do not use me.
Error: Score not valid. Maintenance needed.
Error: You shot my cable.
Error: I am unfulfilled. I wish I were a paper target.
If error shows up, don't allow score to be accepted.

What wrong with the reported message: Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately? Score was not assigned by the system in this case.

2. During Wade Fillingame shot at 10:39:30 target reported error message: "Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately". This message was acknowledged by the scorer by pressing OK button. Please note this message is displayed on scorer monitors only. This message means that target did detect the shot, but the sensors discrepancy is too large to determine the shot with required accuracy.

3. Someone responded to this message after 51 seconds at 10:40:21 the scorer pressed the "Miss" button instructing the system to attribute Miss to this event. Please note in user instruction such event is explained and HEX Systems’ recommend in such instances to grant to shooter another shot. (I Rick am assuming that someone made the decision to call it a “miss”. Probably because the assumption was that the target had 8 working sensors.).

I see people really have no time to develop some knowledge read used manual, study web materials or even to read the previous posts before making the solid statement here. There some fact for quick reading fro time saving:

Again in any system any sensors are affecting by events which generates the errors. It always exist - the matter is the magnitude of these errors in relation to the signals. It can be very small it can be large compare to the measured value. But they exists all the time.
In advanced systems 3 senors is enough to detect and locate the shot. But all those 3 sensor must have significantly smaller error compare to acceptable error for a final result. If one of those 3 sensors has large error - does not matter that other sensors errors was small - the final result would be screwed. Some systems using simplified algorithm which requires 4 sensor. For them if any of 4 sensor give larger error the final result will be incorrect.
So in case of only 3 sensor are used (or 4 for some systems) we have no other reference point so we have no choice but to plot whatever we received. In case of 4 sensor (for 3 sensors algorithm) we have an one extra sensor which we may compare the results with. It may indicate that the one of others 3 sensors may have an large error but we cannot say which sensor gave the large error (as reference sensors may be affected by large error as well). HEXTA has 8 sensors which give 56 inter-correlated points for every shot (56 combinations of 3 sensors). These point is used for complicated comparative and statistical analysis of error for each sensor and total result.
In case when we have 5 sensors active we may not only say they that this shot is not accurate, but we also may find which sensor gave an large error and reject it from calculation it (however if other sensors also has an error you may still not able to correct it - then other extra sensors helps). No need to notify users as error is eliminated and result is correct.
This method works only of other sensors are independent and is not used for some other calculation (like angel of projectile approach or projectile speed calculation).

So HEXTA is designed that sensors can be shot while operating. So when 4 sensor shot out - HEXTA became ordinary system with 4 sensors and can detect shot accurately and verify the result with extra 4th sensor. But instead of just averaging the position of 4 sensor (which is accurate in most cases) HEXTA also compare them and in case of discrepancy found, it reports that shot cannot be resolved accurately rather then just quietly plot the shot with the error. If we would not have this feature does not matter how many sensor is operating, we would not have this topic started as nobody would know this shot may have an gross error. So we are inform people about potential problem with the shot and as I see some people see this as "design flaw" or "beta".
All this is written in HEX Systems web site for many years. It also include the performance of the systems in random conditions. Please study before making any assumption and write statements.

To make it clear again:
1. HEXTA does check sensors at start-up and reports conditions to the user.
2. HEXTA check every shot by matching response from all sensors.
3. Errors in Mics are random for any target and always exists. The magnitude of error is vary. Different manufactured handling such errors differently. HEXTA records to the log which sensor and when was affected by random error and the magnitude of this error for every shot.
4. HEXTA can recover the shot in case of some mics are affected by significant error or shot-out without affecting accuracy of the resulting shot position.
5. HEXTA can lose the some mics without loosing accuracy performance - this is in design.
6. HEXTA reports all shots which may be not accurate to the scorer and did not assigned any value to them. HEX Systems recommend to inform Range Officers and recommend to RO to give to shooter another shot.
7. In our case HEXTA did NOT assigned MISS to shooter. HEXTA did reported to the scorer message that it cannot resolve shot accurately (see above). The miss was assigned manually by scorer by pressing "Miss" button in his own decision with or without consultation to match Master or Range Officer.
8. The log was analyzed post-factum as all messages were ignored at the day of competition.

Thank you

Dmitri

 

[Dmitri]

Did you really just throw your client under the bus?

We are getting more and more employees from this forum.

We already have Principal Director which I was not aware of.

Take a place in line please!!!

 

[Bindi2]

I know what I’m talking about before I post it on here and that’s a fact.

Have just been through a target test where random large errors were recorded. We retested the targets with the worst errors two days later to find normal error readings of <2mm at 900m all being in the shooters favour. This was not accepted there was a problem with the targets. On further investigation we found the method of testing used not correct the calibres used marginal at that range. In the heated discussion that followed it was revealed by other shooters on the day the first test was done that their higher ballistic calibres needed 2+ lines more elevation to hit centre. This indicated the

testers ammo was the problem with the calculations showing this was the case. I have gone past the position of blaming the ETs they do tell you there is a problem you just have to be smart enough to read the signs. Those that complain the loudest are those who never do anything to find why or fix it, they just complain on.

 

[Zilla]

Good grief.

 

[okshooter]

Dmitri,

First, I will say that I have never shot on, or even seen in person an electric target.

You are bashing shooters for not reading the manual or website for these targets. They shouldn't have to. It doesn't matter to us as shooters whether the problem is with the system design, system setup, maintenance history, etc. What matters to us is that when we lay down and take a shot, it is recorded properly every time, not some times or even most times. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer and range operator to make that happen. Until that can happen, it is my opinion that the technology had no place at a registered match. While it's true that ETs solve some of the problems with paper targets, they create new ones. With a paper target, if many of these things happen, they can be easily resolved pretty quickly with a challenge, either the hole is in the paper or it's not.

Whether an ET system has 1, 2, 4, 8, or 20 sensors as designed, it shouldn't be used in a match unless enough of them are operational to guarantee every shot that lands inside the scoring area is accurately accounted for. Showing a messege "shot position cannot be resolved accurately" is not an acceptable answer to a shot fired for record in a match. If it takes 3 sensors to do this some of the time, and 4 to do it most of the time and 50 to do it every time, they should not be used in a match unless they have 50 operational sensors.

You seem to have a stake in ETs either as a designer, owner, manufcaturer, etc. if that's the case, it's your responsibility, not the shooters, to make this happen. If you can't provide a system that can do that and train your customers and users to a point that it happens every time, you should expect some public bashing.

Keith

 

[Bindi2]

Dmitri,

First, I will say that I have never shot on, or even seen in person an electric target.

You are bashing shooters for not reading the manual or website for these targets. They shouldn't have to. It doesn't matter to us as shooters whether the problem is with the system design, system setup, maintenance history, etc. What matters to us is that when we lay down and take a shot, it is recorded properly every time, not some times or even most times. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer and range operator to make that happen. Until that can happen, it is my opinion that the technology had no place at a registered match. While it's true that ETs solve some of the problems with paper targets, they create new ones. With a paper target, if many of these things happen, they can be easily resolved pretty quickly with a challenge, either the hole is in the paper or it's not.

Whether an ET system has 1, 2, 4, 8, or 20 sensors as designed, it shouldn't be used in a match unless enough of them are operational to guarantee every shot that lands inside the scoring area is accurately accounted for. Showing a messege "shot position cannot be resolved accurately" is not an acceptable answer to a shot fired for record in a match. If it takes 3 sensors to do this some of the time, and 4 to do it most of the time and 50 to do it every time, they should not be used in a match unless they have 50 operational sensors.

You seem to have a stake in ETs either as a designer, owner, manufcaturer, etc. if that's the case, it's your responsibility, not the shooters, to make this happen. If you can't provide a system that can do that and train your customers and users to a point that it happens every time, you should expect some public bashing.

Keith

It is not the makers responsibility to do what the Match Director should be doing which is the maintenance. You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. A teacher can teach all they like but only the student makes the decision on how much they learn. This is not an ET problem it is a human problem between the manufacturer and the event which is the recording of the fired shot.

 

[Stumpy1]

It sure seems like some here expect that if they go under the hood of their truck and pull 4 random plug wires off, that the truck would continue to run normally.

-It has been clearly stated that several of the targets had multiple sensors out.
-It has been clearly stated that upon startup each individual target does a diagnostic that would indicate non-functional sensors.

It seems clear to me that the range in question has a maintenance problem -perhaps lack of knowledge, lack of skill, or just plain lack of help to do the job. I have no way of knowing from here.

A comment was made about nobody reading the manual -I think this is probably accurate, but who the heck has that kind of time, when there is a shortage of help to even get the BASIC work of setting up and running a match done?

It also seems that a diagnostic that can be run manually, or back at the firing line, or off the server would be a good thing. That said, if you found out on the morning of the match that you had sensors out, what could you do about it while people are squadding? 'Well, guys, we only have two functional targets, so we are going to have 17 relays today' Not very practical, I think.

This situation is really no different than ranges with paper targets -how many of you have gone down to the pits only to find that the target you are supposed to be scoring is mostly a blown out mess of cardboard? Can you do a great job of scoring with a target like that? Does one spotter blowout make a gigantic hole that takes a miracle to patch? How many times are the pit boxes missing pasters, spotters, or staplers? How many times is the carrier not lubed, and it takes the Hulk to pull it? ALL of those issues have to be corrected BEFORE match day. Often several days before match day.

Folks, complaining about the situation isn't going to help. From my time in the Army, my superiors often said, 'don't come to me with complaints, come with solutions'. I think that approach is almost always the correct one.

I hope that some of you reading this thread will consider volunteering to help your own home range and match directors, whether they have e-targets or manual targets. I am absolutely positive that they would welcome your help. That help would allow them to read the manual, plan better maintenance programs, and get more of the 'nice to have' stuff done on the range. I think the end result would be smoother running matches with fewer problems, more people with knowledge of the system, happier shooters, a more relaxed match director (ever notice how grumpy they get sometimes... ) and much less bellyaching on the forums.

Respectfully submitted,

Frank

 

[Dmitri]

Hi Keith

Dmitri,
You are bashing shooters for not reading the manual or website for these targets.

Not I'm not. I'm bashing individuals who has very little idea what they are taking about but present their opinion as the only and only valid facts.
I do not expecting shooters to read the manual. They can if they want to. But range officials and range officer (match master) definitely should read it and should be able to resolve the problems. It works here in Australia where ranges are running matches with 200 and more shooters on 30 targets. With shooters who never read user manual and never experienced the system before.

What matters to us is that when we lay down and take a shot, it is recorded properly every time, not some times or even most times.

Valid point. But manual target does not meet this requirement either.

You seem to have a stake in ETs either as a designer, owner, manufcaturer, etc. if that's the case, it's your responsibility, not the shooters, to make this happen.

Absolutely agree and we are doing everything we can to make this happens.

Best regards
Dmitri

 

[Dos XX]

What wrong with the reported message: Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately? Score was not assigned by the system in this case. Dmitri

Your customer didn't understand what it meant or what to do about it? Your HMI overshot your targeted audience / end user.

 

[Dmitri]

Your customer didn't understand what it meant or what to do about it? Your HMI overshot your targeted audience / end user.

Dos XX,

If something happens on the range and someone does not understand what to do, what should be done? Call Range Officer (match master).
Actually this phrase was suggested to me to the current version by the highly respected English speaking shooters.

Best regards

Dmitri

 

[Dos XX]

Actually this phrase was suggested to me to the current version by the highly respected English speaking shooters.

Apparently it missed, or there weren't enough sensors to resolve it.

 

[Dmitri]

Apparently it missed, or there weren't enough sensors to resolve it.

This message should be displayed when the valid shot is detected and very likely in even in the expected position but operational sensors are affected by errors (noise, vibration, sensitivity, lobes position etc) and cannot find the consensus during shot position resolution with the accuracy which allow to attribute shot value accurately.

In other words it was so noisy condition that all sensor was destructed are disagree where the shout is exactly (9 or 10, 10 or X) so shoot again please. It similar that target are worn out to such extend that I cannot see the line very well.

And another try: It is not enough sensors which is affected by so small error so their data is good enough to resolve and confirm the shot

Than less sensor are in use than more probable the occurrence of such situation.

Regards Dmitri

 

[Dos XX]

This message should be displayed when the valid shot is detected and very likely in even in the expected position but operational sensors are affected by errors (noise, vibration, sensitivity, lobes position etc) and cannot find the consensus during shot position resolution with the accuracy which allow to attribute shot value accurately.

In other words it was so noisy condition that all sensor was destructed are disagree where the shout is exactly (9 or 10, 10 or X) so shoot again please. It similar that target are worn out to such extend that I cannot see the line very well.

And another try: It is not enough sensors which is affected by so small error so their data is good enough to resolve and confirm the shot

Than less sensor are in use than more probable the occurrence of such situation.

Regards Dmitri

I was referring to your HMI message.

 

[okshooter]

↑
Dmitri,
You are bashing shooters for not reading the manual or website for these targets.
Not I'm not. I'm bashing individuals who has very little idea what they are taking about but present their opinion as the only and only valid facts.
I do not expecting shooters to read the manual. They can if they want to. But range officials and range officer (match master) definitely should read it and should be able to resolve the problems. It works here in Australia where ranges are running matches with 200 and more shooters on 30 targets. With shooters who never read user manual and never experienced the system before.

It was my understanding that XTR and SWRichmond were shooters that had a problem with your system as it was used in a match they attended. If that's not the case, my apologies. If I am correct, they do know what they are talking about. They were scored a miss because the system (equipment, MD, scorer) didn't operate properly to accurately report what happened.

↑
What matters to us is that when we lay down and take a shot, it is recorded properly every time, not some times or even most times.
Valid point. But manual target does not meet this requirement either.

From what I have heard from talking to shooters that I know and trust that have used both systems, manual targets come much closer at this time.

Please don't think I am against ETs. I think they have the potential to be great for this sport. If nothing else, they would allow more younger and older shooters to participate.

Maybe something to consider as a manufacturer, is to have the display report in real time the status of sensors to the scorer. Something like a line at the bottom of the screen that says something like "Target Accuracy" with a light representing sensors. If three or less or lit, the are red and indicate a system that is down, 4 is yellow, system may work but may not recognize all shots. 5 or more and the system is fully operational and will record all shots that land inside the target area. If it's red, the system is repaired or the shooter is moved. If it's yellow, the shooter, scorer and RO discuss options before moving forward. This gives the shooter the opportunity to say I don't have enough ammo to risk unresolved shots, and the RO to make sure the scorer understands the potential messages and how to respond to them. Just an idea.

 

[okshooter]

Apparently I don't know how to quote quotes properly. I hope all can follow what I tried to do above.

 

[FatBoy]

in Wade's case, it seems the scorer should have given him a "target albeit" do to the non-resolve condition. A few extra shots may not be ideal, but it's a damn lot better than eating misses for nothing and working the pits half the day. Our MD reviews missed or shots that seem to have a gross error.

What we find in most odd shots on our open faced targets (recorded but way outside the group) is the Velocity is between 250-500fps outside the SD. When we see this, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt and gets an albeit.

 

[Dmitri]

They were scored a miss because the system (equipment, MD, scorer) didn't operate properly to accurately report what happened.

Yeah right... If some idiot gunned down people this is everyones faults - the society, NRA, gun seller and of course gun manufacturers.... And this is beta as gun did not shut itself done when used inappropriately not according to instruction and allowed it happened - manufacturers fault...

 

[Dmitri]

I was referring to your HMI message.

Sorry did not realize that you refer to target HI message. I was thinking you are talking about Human interface - the screen. It cannot be clearer - 8 segments corresponds to each sensor. Location of segments are corresponds to sensor location - similar like someone requested with the tablet. Segment ON - sensor OK. OFF - sensor out of service.
There is the reason why it is on target - not on shooter/scorer screen: When target is installed and powered up - you will see see the problem immediately, while you on pit, so may act immediately. If you will be able to see the problem with sensor on filing point - you have to go back and deal with it.
Also as said above - this is range officials problem - shooters do not need to know about this as they may not be able to interpreter it anyway and it would be another manufacturer fault.

 

[Dmitri]

Maybe something to consider as a manufacturer, is to have the display report in real time the status of sensors to the scorer. Something like a line at the bottom of the screen that says something like "Target Accuracy" with a light representing sensors. If three or less or lit, the are red and indicate a system that is down, 4 is yellow, system may work but may not recognize all shots. 5 or more and the system is fully operational and will record all shots that land inside the target area. If it's red, the system is repaired or the shooter is moved. If it's yellow, the shooter, scorer and RO discuss options before moving forward. This gives the shooter the opportunity to say I don't have enough ammo to risk unresolved shots, and the RO to make sure the scorer understands the potential messages and how to respond to them. Just an idea.

... and another page or two in the user instruction (which wold not be read anyway) how to interpret these messages, when you may use the systems and may not, and in case of someone is "reading challenged" or color blind person - it would be manufacturer fault...

 

[Dos XX]

Sorry did not realize that you refer to target HI message. I was thinking you are talking about Human interface - the screen. It cannot be clearer - 8 segments corresponds to each sensor. Location of segments are corresponds to sensor location - similar like someone requested with the tablet. Segment ON - sensor OK. OFF - sensor out of service.
There is the reason why it is on target - not on shooter/scorer screen: When target is installed and powered up - you will see see the problem immediately, while you on pit, so may act immediately. If you will be able to see the problem with sensor on filing point - you have to go back and deal with it.
Also as said above - this is range officials problem - shooters do not need to know about this as they may not be able to interpreter it anyway and it would be another manufacturer fault.

I would think you would need to be able to see it both at the target and on the shooter / scorer screen. What if someone shoots a cable or sensor during a match? Would that not require action? This could be well after the the target was powered up and well into the match.

My point was, the message on the screen was not understood nor acted upon, therefore it was inadequate for the customer's situation being described here. I personally don't care who's fault that was. However, it does seem to me that it would be in the target manufacturer's best interest to make sure it is understood.

If you would lower your defensive stance and look through some of these posts, I think you might see some ways to improve your product and make it easier to use in an actual match.