Electronic targets/ no hit

[JohnKielly]

If I were still a traveling competitor Electronic Scoring would be the deciding factor in deciding whether or not to spend thousands of dollars on travel expenses to attend a match.

I recommend that you don't shoot Olympic or World Cup events. They're ET wall to wall & have been for quite a time.

 

[Bindi2]

Bindi

What ET systems are you conversant with - what's used where you shoot?

John

Kongsberg mostly, few Hexta, SMT a few. The Solo and the shot marker just appearing. I own my own SMT, the club uses Kongsberg which I maintain. We now put a cassette into the Kongs berg to speed up repair and lower costs.

 

[Matt P]

Identifying [potential] errors from the log that might account for certain unacceptable behaviors is only a very small part of the solution. The much larger part of the solution is to understand why the errors occurred in such a way that they can be prevented by system updates and/or preventative maintenance. Until that happens, these systems are clearly not capable of performing at an acceptable level in all venues at which they are being used.

Arguing that a given system has "X" number of shots without failure makes little difference if the source of the errors hasn't been clearly identified and the underlying cause rectified. No matter how many shots have been fired to date without error, the potential for errors still exists and the odds increase with every additional shot. It's pretty easy to downplay someone else's missed shot, but it's an entirely different thing when it happens to you. Further, the discussion of how the rules should be specifically changed to accommodate missed shots is ludicrous. Who cay state with a straight face it isn't possible for an e-target to fail to pick up one shot, but work fine for the next? Until the reason(s) for such errors are fully understood, the answer is that no can make such a claim. That means that whenever such a "missed shot" situation occurs, it currently is almost impossible to distinguish in the context of a match the difference between a true miss and a target error. As a competitor, I do not find it acceptable to possibly award a shooter that actually fired a miss an extra shot to redeem their error. Nor do I find it acceptable to penalize a shooter that actually did hit the target as intended by making them fire another shot, which could A) register as hit, possibly at a lower score than the previous shot, while simultaneously giving them a "0" for the previous so-called "miss", or B) also fail to register as a "miss", whereupon they might have to move to a different target to complete their string, or something even more ridiculous. Please don't try to tell me that this is rational, or that paper targets currently cause anything even close to these kinds of problems, because I know differently.

This whole E-target story seems very much like like what we've been observing in the mainstream media over the last couple years. That is, an almost complete loss of rational thought and behavior. Any reasonable person not directly connected to this sport would read through this thread alone and be asking themselves why people would be using E-target systems when they clearly still have significant issues. However, there are those that for reasons I can't fathom always seem ready to defend their use, almost to the death. I simply don't get it. As has been already pointed out, the technology will eventually be far better than it is now. Why is it such a problem to admit the obvious, which is that they aren't quite there yet? Once such an admission is made, the solution becomes simple. Folks will continue to use them in places that have invested in them already. In doing so, the reliability over time will either be improved to an acceptable level, or they will simply go away. Until such time as that happens, they should certainly not be for big matches at the Regional and/or National level. People that attend those matches have far too much time, effort, and $$$ invested to potentially be subjected to this foolishness. Although such failures may be extraordinarily rare events, even one is too many if you happen to be the one to which it happens.

Ned
If the owners don't know or care about their targets there will be issues, not checking if all the sensors are working is a bit like not replacing the face on a paper target and having 100's of patches on top of each other to the point of not being able to see all of the scoring rings. In this instance the ET's were more than likely not at fault, as I stated earlier how is the target meant to be accurate with half of the sensors not reading ?? ET's aren't perfect but neither are paper targets, but with some regular inspection and repair as required and some attention to detail with target face placement they can be very good. There are some systems that I won't shoot on but I'm comfortable enough with the Hex system that I'm more than happy to shoot our National titles with them in use.
Matt P

 

[XTR]

Ned
If the owners don't know or care about their targets there will be issues, not checking if all the sensors are working is a bit like not replacing the face on a paper target and having 100's of patches on top of each other to the point of not being able to see all of the scoring rings. In this instance the ET's were more than likely not at fault, as I stated earlier how is the target meant to be accurate with half of the sensors not reading ?? ET's aren't perfect but neither are paper targets, but with some regular inspection and repair as required and some attention to detail with target face placement they can be very good. There are some systems that I won't shoot on but I'm comfortable enough with the Hex system that I'm more than happy to shoot our National titles with them in use.
Matt P

The system has a flaw. If there were sensors down the system should have notified the operator on startup. It should give an error message and not be able to be used until the error is cleared. How is the system operator to know on Saturday morning that his system has mics down?

The systems need to have at least a basic level of self diagnostics. These are the thing that need to be worked out, and as noted above, they are the things that the Beta testers will identify.

 

[Matt P]

The system has a flaw. If there were sensors down the system should have notified the operator on startup. It should give an error message and not be able to be used until the error is cleared. How is the system operator to know on Saturday morning that his system has mics down?

The systems need to have at least a basic level of self diagnostics. These are the thing that need to be worked out, and as noted above, they are the things that the Beta testers will identify.

It does have a basic self diagnostic system, either the owners don’t know how to use it or ignored it. Maybe it shouldn’t allow the target to boot up but the procedure is very simple.

 

[FatBoy]

The self diagnosis is a good idea I hadn't considered. I'm unsure is Shot Markers, SMT Solo or the 4/8 mic SMTs have this. If not, they should.

It would be nice if these system had the ability to show a mic error real time on the screen. That way, if someone shoots a wire or a mic, the shooter and MD both know there is a possibility for inaccurate shots. Things like this will go a long way toward making shooters more comfortable with all of the systems.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

goBallistic Response. Thank you all for your patience in this matter. Because of 3 time zones involved, and one being around the globe it has taken us too long to analyze the situation. We will have a response to you "Post Haste". Rick

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

John,

I will be 70 next year, and have had five cancer surgeries; due to Agent Orange exposure in RVN. There isn't much worry of me showing up and complaining about the scoring system anymore.

 

[JohnKielly]

John,

I will be 70 next year, and have had five cancer surgeries; due to Agent Orange exposure in RVN. There isn't much worry of me showing up and complaining about the scoring system anymore.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash you, just point out that around the world, ETs are mature products used in serious competition.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Thank you all for your patience on this Forum topic!

We take these situations very, very seriously! Someone has said “we have our umbilical cord tied to each target”. Because of our 3 time zones, and weekend activity, our response was too slow. We apologize for that. Before we responded with anything, we needed a clear concise analysis of the event. We are not divine nor are our people who manufacture our targets. “There is a first for everything”.

goBallistic and Hex Systems’ position is that every shooter, and every Range Officer should have complete confidence in reported scores (for Records) as HEXTA reports them, from range to range, from coast to coast, and from match to match. There is no room for compromise on that! If we are not there, we should not be in the market place.

As has been stated in a previous post that we proclaim that we “Don’t Miss a Shot”. If there is proper power in the target, antennas, and servers, that will be true. There are 8 independent sensors (ears) listening for all sound or pressure waves. Even if a bullet strikes the wooden frame, the sensors pick up a bullet strike and reports it. We stand by that claim! Out of millions of shots on target, we have not missed a pressure wave.

Wade (XTR) communicated that his score did not reflect his marksmanship. He was right about that. For that we sincerely apologize!

In Wades situation 4 of the 8 sensors were not functioning. We haven’t heard yet if there are wires shot out or sensors shot out. Either way they will be fixed. Foot note. Shooting out a sensor does not shut down the target, but it will reduce precision. Check out goBallistic

The HEXTA MATCH-GRADE targets begins capturing a debug file the moment it is powered up which can be examined after the match. Dmitri Kazakov the owner of Hex Systems did that, and this is his report.

“1. Target 6 has only 4 sensors functioning (Sensors 1,3,5,8)

2. During Wade Fillingame shot at 10:39:30 target reported error message: "Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately". This message was acknowledged by the scorer by pressing OK button. Please note this message is displayed on scorer monitors only. This message means that target did detect the shot, but the sensors discrepancy is too large to determine the shot with required accuracy.

3. Someone responded to this message after 51 seconds at 10:40:21 the scorer pressed the "Miss" button instructing the system to attribute Miss to this event. Please note in user instruction such event is explained and HEX Systems’ recommend in such instances to grant to shooter another shot. (I Rick am assuming that someone made the decision to call it a “miss”. Probably because the assumption was that the target had 8 working sensors.)

As I previously mentioned the target did not miss the shot. However, the target detected the shot and did recognized that one or more sensor was affected by errors but could not resolve it, so it reported to the user as the target is designed to do. There was not sufficient data for the software to be confident in calling a shot.”

The HEXTA Match-Grade targets have a rubber sheet in front of and behind the 7 inch cavity. Additionally, those sheets are covered by a Corflute sheet, front and back as well. In front of the front sheet there is a 4’ X 4’ Corflute sheet over the center where the aiming mark is placed. So, we have tried to eliminate as much noise interference as practically possible.

Our oldest targets in Australia are 6 to 7 years old with thousands of rounds through them with original rubber. When the centers get too shot out a rubber patch is fixed in place.

The HEXTA Match-Grade target is the only E-Target with 56 data points calculating Point of Impact.

So just to summarize and clarify that some of the reported Posts above in this topic ARE NOT CORRECT. The HEXTA target did NOT miss any shots. It did however NOT report a guessed Point of Impact without sufficient data as designed. That is a maintenance issue.

We apologize to those shooters for any erroneous results. Precision is the only option.

To Wade and those who do a lot of bashing without knowing the facts or understand the technology.

Number one, the rumors you started were not true. That damages the reputation of all E-Targets, Vendors, and dumbs down the direction of the sport by reducing the sports expectations. That is “false news”.

To be clear: In your case you had 4 providing triangulations, or data point to declare Point of Impact. As many as all other E-Targets, but it is NOT enough data to satisfy Hex’s patented software to declare correct shot position. Therefore, the program correctly declared "Error: Shot position cannot be resolved accurately” That’s better than blindly declaring an erroneous Point of impact that is accepted without knowledge of the truth and accepts a Gross Error.

At that point, and as indicated in the operator’s manual, the RO needs to be involved and as we recommend another shot awarded. Therefore the “Miss” should not have been awarded, and the equipment checked out.

Forum quote "The system has a flaw. If there were sensors down the system should have notified the operator on startup" Another wrong statement NB

That is exactly what HEXTA does. The start up sequence indicates tests the and declares their functionality.

The HEXTA Match Grade target is a mature product with close to 200 targets in Australia and the USA being used in 40 plus clubs, and over 100 shooters weekly.

Thanks for your patience on this. I’d be happy to answer any further questions Rick

 

[XTR]

Rick, you are arguing semantics, though I'll freely concede the point of language that the target scoring package did not "miss the shot", yes it detected the shockwave. I think my comments in the previous posts make pretty clear the events that occurred and why we all knew it wasn't a crossfire.

I am happy to learn that the system was saying that the location error was too great to report. Good on 'em for that. But, the fact remains that the faulty target did startup, and was running and was in use in a Registered NRA HP match.


The following is not directed to Rick, but the the ranges that are using e targets.

The target scoring package is part of a larger system, that includes the people operating it. In this case the target scoring package did fail to accurately report the location of a shot(s) through the target during competition in an NRA Registered match, which is a system failure. This failure was caused by the operation of a faulty target with half of its sensors malfunctioning. What ever notifications/checks/diagnostics exist to prevent the unit with inoperable mics from being put into service were inadequate to prevent the occurrence, and the training of the personnel operating the system was inadequate to understand the messages provided to them by the target.

I know this is shooting sports and it is a hobby, (at least for the shooters), but lets project for a moment. If the system being discussed was on one of my projects it would be shut down and there would be a corrective action plan, including any necessary training/retraining or personnel, approved and implemented before it would be allowed to restart operations. I went though that very painful process with a subcontractor shut down for 5 days on a multi million dollar project 6 weeks ago.

The point of this is that the increased QA/QC needs to be taken into account and understood for any range considering e-target systems. Adding a reasonably sophisticated target scoring package to ranges, usually being operated by people with limited experience/training, helped by people with almost none, and used by new shooters who have been handed a tablet and given two minutes of orientation. The targets scoring package may be great, but the system includes all of the links, including the weak human ones. One of the arguments for E-targets is that it removes the human errors from scoring, but as demonstrated here, it adds a whole different set of human factors. So, if you are replacing low tech paper targets and pasters with electronics and computers you should be implementing some kind of QA/QC or the system is going to fail you, and you can bet it will do it at the most inopportune time. That is not on the vendors, they are selling you the electronics, that is their job, they are not telling you how to run your range.

 

[Dmitri]

I am happy to learn that the system was saying that the location error was too great to report. Good on 'em for that. But, the fact remains that the faulty target did startup, and was running and was in use in a Registered NRA HP match.

So target lost 4 sensors. It became ordinary 4-sesnor target which is used everywhere. It just have an extra feature to detect some error and report it instead just to blindly display the shots with gross error who knows how large the error is.

I really struggling to understand why we have to shut our 4-sesnor target while other 4 sensors target with the same performance or even worse are OK to use in the Registered NRA HP match?

Looks like that the fact that we are reporting the fault is became our disadvantage. I guess that many shooters here would be happier if target simply ignore the discrepancy and plot the shot somewhere preferably closer to the center of the target.

Dmitri

 

[JohnKielly]

But, the fact remains that the faulty target did startup, and was running and was in use in a Registered NRA HP match.

That one intrigues me. As I said in an earlier post, hereabouts we do interrogate the error log with a locally written piece of software and adjust or repair target before they're put in the air on any occasion, match or weekend club shoots. Seems to me that's what's being dissected in this case is the need for the location in question to come up to speed on their maintenance & presentation.

I can't comment on whether the startup diagnostics would have indicated that; I'm not involved at the grassroots level here.

 

[XTR]

So target lost 4 sensors. It became ordinary 4-sesnor target which is used everywhere. It just have an extra feature to detect some error and report it instead just to blindly display the shots with gross error who knows how large the error is.

I really struggling to understand why we have to shut our 4-sesnor target while other 4 sensors target with the same performance or even worse are OK to use in the Registered NRA HP match?

Looks like that the fact that we are reporting the fault is became our disadvantage. I guess that many shooters here would be happier if target simply ignore the discrepancy and plot the shot somewhere preferably closer to the center of the target.

Dmitri

You are deflecting. I don't care who built the target scoring package. I want the system to report shots with at least the reliability, precision and accuracy of a paper target with pasters. We have circled back to the point that E targets in general are not ready for prime time.

 

[sdean]

If missing shot was anywhere near the before and after shot why can the target locate those on 4 sensors. I shoot at this place. Never had any trouble before. You would think that the club would get wind of this thread and post what actions are being taken.

 

[XTR]

If missing shot was anywhere near the before and after shot why can the target locate those on 4 sensors. I shoot at this place. Never had any trouble before. You would think that the club would get wind of this thread and post what actions are being taken.

They have, and they are. I got a call from the owner last night.

 

[Bob L.]

Based on what I've read on this thread, I'm sure I was shooting at the same match. I had a miss recorded on my first sighter on the second string. My second sighter was recorded even though I made no adjustments. The RO was right there and is aware of it. I'm sure Mike will take corrective action.
I am under treatment for cancer and will be for the rest of my life. E-targets are a blessing to me and allow me to continue shooting. I can accept some issues even though I'm confident I didn't shoot a miss, never have at 600 yds., but I suppose there is always a first time.

 

[Bindi2]

To not sound like a cracked record the electronic part of the target will be working the physical part the sound chamber has a problem it must be sealed for the electronic part to work. If the electronic part is not working nothing works. If the system gets slow or the target on the end of the line is showing issues the power supply is faulty in the pits or the aerials cannot see each other clearly also rough handling of the cables breaks the wires in the connectors. There are many more traps for the unwary.

 

[Carden260]

The system has a flaw. If there were sensors down the system should have notified the operator on startup. It should give an error message and not be able to be used until the error is cleared. How is the system operator to know on Saturday morning that his system has mics down?

The systems need to have at least a basic level of self diagnostics. These are the thing that need to be worked out, and as noted above, they are the things that the Beta testers will identify.

XTR The Shot marker has a shot quality indicator each shot is rated 1-5 stars, if you have a 3 or less you have an issue. The MD responsibility to resolve it or move the competitor to another target.

 

[Dos XX]

Error: I have four sensors out. Do not use me.

Error: Score not valid. Maintenance needed.


Error: You shot my cable.

Error: I am unfulfilled. I wish I were a paper target.


If error shows up, don't allow score to be accepted.

Technical people are designing technical things to be operated by non technical people. I see it everyday.

The MD may know these things, but he isn't the person holding my scoring pad.