Neck tension starting point

[dellet]

I’ll just throw this out there to stir the pot cause trouble.

There are plenty of very good groups shot with what most here would consider clapped out inferior equipment every weekend in traditional single shot rifles with cast bullets. High end matches might need 1/2 MOA to win.

It’s possible that the top three shooters would be using three different techniques. Crimp or interference fit, seated with finger pressure, or not seated at all having the bullet breach seated.

All would have low to mid single digit ES loads.

All I would suggest is that what is the best way, may be rifle, cartridge, powder, or bullet dependent.

What’s probably most important is being open to trying something else when what you’re doing ain’t working. Along with having a good handle on whichever method you’re using.

 

[tuttlefarm]

in what application ?

if you are using it a load tuning, you would also have to describe your gun and your load.
else 1 works fine.

I have and still tune for 1000 yd benchrest, And have tested and retested this way and it works for many of the top shooters

 

[Milo 2.0]

I’ll just throw this out there to stir the pot cause trouble.

There are plenty of very good groups shot with what most here would consider clapped out inferior equipment every weekend in traditional single shot rifles with cast bullets. High end matches might need 1/2 MOA to win.

It’s possible that the top three shooters would be using three different techniques. Crimp or interference fit, seated with finger pressure, or not seated at all having the bullet breach seated.

All would have low to mid single digit ES loads.

All I would suggest is that what is the best way, may be rifle, cartridge, powder, or bullet dependent.

What’s probably most important is being open to trying something else when what you’re doing ain’t working. Along with having a good handle on whichever method you’re using.

Are you trying to impart some logic into this post? Keep that crap up we're not going to like you much.

 

[Kramerica]

@Jalen
What caliber and bullet weight are you asking for?
For what use/purpose?
What neck length and how much of the bullet shank will be seated into the neck?
How much of the neck will be sized?
Neck turned brass or not?
How thick of neck walls?
IME - these things can have a lot to do with how much tension maybe needed/optimal.

For an in general answer and/or purpose, 0.002" is my advise.

6.5CM for the bolt action purpose PRS and hunting applications. BAR MK3 in 308 for the semi, strictly a under 300 yards “brush” hunting rifle with a red dot on top. For the 308 I’d say no to neck turning because it’s not for “precision” for the 6.5 I might eventually turn the necks after I learn more about reloading in general. In regards to your other questions I don’t know, I guess I just don’t have that much of a knowledge base yet. Although I can measure the neck length when I get home if you’d like me to. I’m using Redding FL bushing type S bushing dies on the 6.5 and just a cheaper RCBS fl die set on the 308 if that helps at all.

 

[retired]

ok but you did not describe your gun and load, and how it applies to the op.
i happen to like light neck tension, but then i stay close to the lands, which i clearly state all the time when people ask where to start. and i have a national win this way, know others that use light tension.
and yes i shoot both 600 and 1000.

I have and still tune for 1000 yd benchrest, And have tested and retested this way and it works for many of the top shooters

 

[a1712]

Have any of you Gents found that some powders/primers liked different tension in the same rifle? Brian.

 

[Bart B.]

Bullshit - I simply don’t believe that “The less extraction force the smaller the spread will be”

During my 15 years on active duty in the U.S. Navy I shot with the Pacific Fleet rifle and pistol team. We never used a Lyman 310 tong tool.

Read post #3 in

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=217451

Get some then do your own tests.

 

[retired]

wednesday shooting
300 win mag
berger 210 lrtg
ave 2875 2.6sd just under .25moa
.001 neck tension

Bullshit - I simply don’t believe that “The less extraction force the smaller the spread will be”

During my 15 years on active duty in the U.S. Navy I shot with the Pacific Fleet rifle and pistol team. We never used a Lyman 310 tong tool.

 

[ireload2]

I get excellent results using cast bullets in BPCR single shot Browning and Sharps replicas.
Cases are sized in a standard full length die.
They are expanded with a expander the same diameter as the bullet.
The only tension comes from the slight spring back of the case mouth. All bullets are seated straight, usually with a Redding Comp. Seater and they are left about 1 rim thickness shallow compared to touching the lands.
When chambered it takes 5 to 10 lbs thumb pressure to seat the case in the chamber due to bullet friction in the case mouth.
Groups run about 1" for 10 shots on a good day using aperture sights.

 

[Nude nut]

Well for me and my comp rifles if loading with jump 2 to 3 thou neck tension using moly bullets and molied necks if loading into the lands/rifling I use 1/2 to 1 though neck tension with molied bullets and neck.
I think with jump the case needs tension for start pressure bullets into the lands/rifling give you star pressure so you don't need excessive neck tension.
If loading for a heavy recoiling rifle for a magazine for hunting I would be using 3 to 4 thou neck tension with bullets loaded with jump.
Cheers Trev

 

[L W P]

Well for me and my comp rifles if loading with jump 2 to 3 thou neck tension using moly bullets and molied necks if loading into the lands/rifling I use 1/2 to 1 though neck tension with molied bullets and neck.
I think with jump the case needs tension for start pressure bullets into the lands/rifling give you star pressure so you don't need excessive neck tension.
If loading for a heavy recoiling rifle for a magazine for hunting I would be using 3 to 4 thou neck tension with bullets loaded with jump.
Cheers Trev

Yep, I agree 1-2 thousands tension on bolt guns and 4+,give or take .0005", on semi autos. The reason for more tension on the semi autos, unless your crimping the brass a little, is to hold the bullet when the bolt is cycling. Kinetic energy will throw the bullet loose from the brass, forwards, changing your seating length. I always like to check 5-10 rounds after I've loaded for my semi autos AT THE RANGE in a Safe place at the bench with the muzzle pointing down range. Just to make sure that my seating depths do not change after being cycled. Safety first because you never know when and if you might have a slam fire.

 

[L W P]

I don't think you should the same tension in both. .002 for bolt and .004+ for Semi-Auto to start.

Yep, I agree with Bob

 

[searcher]

I also subscribe to the .001" for bolt - and .004" for auto - as other have said. Some of the equation also depends on the quality (consistency) of your neck thickness. You always need to have enough tension to keep that bullet from sliding in the neck in a semi-auto while loading - whether that neck is .012" thick or .014" thick. If all your necks are turned and you have great uniformity - you can use as little as .002" or .003" in a semi auto with no more movement that one would have using .004" and using "crazy" brass. LA50SHOOTER argues this point, maybe without realizing it. We use light tension to overcome our inabilities to otherwise effectively control tension irregularities. Even with turned brass, anyone who has REALLY been serious about measuring extraction forces on loaded ammo knows that the more tension one applies to the necks, the bigger the differences in extraction force from round to round. Say one applies .004" tension and the extraction force differences run in excess of one pound (and they surely will), it is better to use one pound of tension because "whatever" the extraction force is - it will be less than the aforementioned deviation. Result: less extraction force does not "create" better accuracy - it allows better accuracy because there is less deviation in extraction force. Lots of us were in the military and on shooting teams, special forces, etc. I used to think we really knew our stuff too. If we didn't have it or use it - it wasn't necessary. Every year that goes by, I look back on what an uninformed soul I was.

 

[oldroper]

As little as possible is usually best. I've used .001" to .0005" in bolt guns, .0015" to .0010" in 30 caliber semiautos; both for reloading from magazines.

Single round loading sometimes works best with less.

Bart, what busing dies did you use.

 

[Bart B.]

Bart, what busing dies did you use.

I used RCBS one piece full length dies with necks opened up a few thousandths inch.

 

[fguffey]

Bullet hold: I can measure bullet hold in pounds, I just noticed the claims department claimed he got 95 pounds of if resistance when seating a bullet, he also claimed he got 35 pounds of resistance; one day I made a bullet seater, I could not believe how easy it was to seat a bullet with a tool that aligned the neck with the case. I sent a couple to a Moderator on another forum, he thought they were worthy of commercial consideration.

Again, I have tension gages, none of my tension gages measures tension, they all measure in pounds. And then one day a manufacturing company makes a bullet seating devise that allow the reloader to seat bullets and measure the effort required to seat a bullet. The gage does not measure tensions, it measures pounds required.

And they do not have a conversion for tensions to pounds.

F. Guffey

 

[Milo 2.0]

Bullet hold: I can measure bullet hold in pounds, I just noticed the claims department claimed he got 95 pounds of if resistance when seating a bullet, he also claimed he got 35 pounds of resistance; one day I made a bullet seater, I could not believe how easy it was to seat a bullet with a tool that aligned the neck with the case. I sent a couple to a Moderator on another forum, he thought they were worthy of commercial consideration.

Again, I have tension gages, none of my tension gages measures tension, they all measure in pounds. And then one day a manufacturing company makes a bullet seating devise that allow the reloader to seat bullets and measure the effort required to seat a bullet. The gage does not measure tensions, it measures pounds required.

And they do not have a conversion for tensions to pounds.

F. Guffey

I think somehow I got ahold of one of those seaters, they did not work on brass that the shoulders had been bumped.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I am the only one that has one @fguffey

 

[fguffey]

I think somehow I got ahold of one of those seaters, they did not work on brass that the shoulders had been bumped.

It has nothing to do with not believing you, it is all about your claim being impossible. Seating dies do not have neck support, when seating a bullet the shoulder is not supported; there is a reloader that has a friend that knows someone that etc. and if he does not have a friend that has done everything he will invent one.

I sent one to someone that is the most fair and objective person involved in reloading, he thought finding a manufacturer should be considered. There is absolute no way the tool would not work on a case regardless of how the shoulder got to where it is .

And then there is my bore cleaner, it would be impossible for a reloader to mess up, the equipment can not lock up and or jam in the bore. In my opinion there is no way to remove dirt, grit and grime more toughly than with this system, I have also demonstrated it and handed out a few samples. Problem: The beginning has its origin in a dumpster, jobs were going overseas or going south. Out of curiosity I ask this one firm what they did with all of their stuff; they said they loaded up the dumpsters located behind their building. I asked for permission and then went for a few dives, at the time I did not what it was or what it was used for but they threw tons and tons of this stuff sway.

F. Guffey

 

[rebel]

Are you trying to impart some logic into this post? Keep that crap up we're not going to like you much.

And now we need logic

It has nothing to do with not believing you, it is all about your claim being impossible. Seating dies do not have neck support, when seating a bullet the shoulder is not supported; there is a reloader that has a friend that knows someone that etc. and if he does not have a friend that has done everything he will invent one.

I sent one to someone that is the most fair and objective person involved in reloading, he thought finding a manufacturer should be considered. There is absolute no way the tool would not work on a case regardless of how the shoulder got to where it is .

And then there is my bore cleaner, it would be impossible for a reloader to mess up, the equipment can not lock up and or jam in the bore. In my opinion there is no way to remove dirt, grit and grime more toughly than with this system, I have also demonstrated it and handed out a few samples. Problem: The beginning has its origin in a dumpster, jobs were going overseas or going south. Out of curiosity I ask this one firm what they did with all of their stuff; they said they loaded up the dumpsters located behind their building. I asked for permission and then went for a few dives, at the time I did not what it was or what it was used for but they threw tons and tons of this stuff sway.

F. Guffey