GAWD DANG RUNOUT! is it my redding dies?

[rockwind1]

so a while back i was having issues with my 308 and redding dies. so i did all sort of "tricks" like remove shell holder spring, put o-ring under lock nut so the die would "float", tried all the redding tricks like flipping bushing over, trying different amounts on the threaded cap that hold down the bushing, only necking down in increments of .004 bushings, the only thing i didn't do was try a lee collet die cause i couldn't find one, everytime i thought i fixed it, it was but a temporary random bit of luck followed by more random runout,,, BUT,,,,FAST FORWARD 3 WEEKS TO THE PRESENT

now i am loading for my 6.5 SAUM, once again, using a 250 dollar set of redding match full length bushing die and micrometer seater. on a t-7 press. my bushing is .289 which only brings it down .004 or less i believe. did all the usual stuff and AGAIN. it breaks my heart, my once fire or even twice fired brass has practically no run out but when i sized 20 rounds, it comes out with 16 of them having runout from .003 to .006, 4 of them had run out between .001 and .003. now this has been going on for a while, i have been ignoring the elephant in my garage as i reload, (THE BIG, FAT, HAIRY, SMELLY ELEPHANT"S NAME IS,,, EXCESSIVE RUNOUT!, by the way) and i can't ignore it anymore.

I don't care that redding says anything under .003 is fine!

how many people on here use redding dies with success in the run out/concentricity area? once again, i think as reloaders we should be able to put out a better product than factory, yet using my concentricity guage, my ammo is worse concentrically than factory stuff, (prime, federal, hornady)

i am measuring it on the same guage so there must be something to it even if my guage is not perfect. i am in a rush to get this load development thing behind me so I can rejoin society,,(hopefully rehabilitated) and i dont' have time to custom order some dies BUT IF i did, which ones should i get,,,? whidden?

am I alone out there?,,,, does no one else share my concentric pain?

i have good equipment, it shouldn't do this! what was that 80's movie where they yelled out the window " I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!"

that's me about runout.

 

[GT Accuracy]

Rock,

Have you done the following:

1. What is the neck diameter of your chamber?
2. What have you turned your necks to and the loaded round measurement?

Custom dies, to me, are really the way to go. They are perfect matches to your chamber. The Whdden product is nice, so are gunsmith made ones from Newlon and Wilson Blanks. Only fault against the Whidden is that you are stuck with his reamer specs or you have to order a resize reamer based on your finish reamer and send it to him. Maybe he has changed things up since I ordered last, but either way you slice it - custom dies to your chamber are $500+ if the maker doesn't have your spec on hand.

 

[dkhunt14]

Where is the runout induced? Is it ok before sizing? It is ok after sizing? It can be the press. It can be the brass. If the brass is not turned and you size it, the thicker brass is pushed to the inside. Now if you seat the bullet, the bullet is not concentric with the case. Matt

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Can you hear your bushing rattle in the die? Do you have the expander on there? Those are the 2 usual culprits

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Rockwind1, Iknow your talking about bushing dies but I found this interesting. A guy over on the long range hunting forum had this trouble with his f/l Redding dies and he has been changing out the stem to Forster brand with the floating expander ball. It’s in their reloading forum under the title “Die Selection 300WSM???”

 

[dcali]

I hate to break it to you, but your dies are working normally. Redding is right.

 

[JFrank]

so a while back i was having issues with my 308 and redding dies. so i did all sort of "tricks" like remove shell holder spring, put o-ring under lock nut so the die would "float", tried all the redding tricks like flipping bushing over, trying different amounts on the threaded cap that hold down the bushing, only necking down in increments of .004 bushings, the only thing i didn't do was try a lee collet die cause i couldn't find one, everytime i thought i fixed it, it was but a temporary random bit of luck followed by more random runout,,, BUT,,,,FAST FORWARD 3 WEEKS TO THE PRESENT

now i am loading for my 6.5 SAUM, once again, using a 250 dollar set of redding match full length bushing die and micrometer seater. on a t-7 press. my bushing is .289 which only brings it down .004 or less i believe. did all the usual stuff and AGAIN. it breaks my heart, my once fire or even twice fired brass has practically no run out but when i sized 20 rounds, it comes out with 16 of them having runout from .003 to .006, 4 of them had run out between .001 and .003. now this has been going on for a while, i have been ignoring the elephant in my garage as i reload, (THE BIG, FAT, HAIRY, SMELLY ELEPHANT"S NAME IS,,, EXCESSIVE RUNOUT!, by the way) and i can't ignore it anymore.

I don't care that redding says anything under .003 is fine!

how many people on here use redding dies with success in the run out/concentricity area? once again, i think as reloaders we should be able to put out a better product than factory, yet using my concentricity guage, my ammo is worse concentrically than factory stuff, (prime, federal, hornady)

i am measuring it on the same guage so there must be something to it even if my guage is not perfect. i am in a rush to get this load development thing behind me so I can rejoin society,,(hopefully rehabilitated) and i dont' have time to custom order some dies BUT IF i did, which ones should i get,,,? whidden?

am I alone out there?,,,, does no one else share my concentric pain?

i have good equipment, it shouldn't do this! what was that 80's movie where they yelled out the window " I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!"

that's me about runout.

I don't blame you for being upset some of these big shot companies ride there reputation too long before updating the product.
I am in transition to a different caliber and still saving for Wilson dies and press so I ordered a set of Forster for a very reasonable price and I must they are dead on for seating.
I also use they're simple neck sizer with very good results while fire forming cases, my next purchase will be a Harrell's FL
Total out put for Forster is around $120
Good luck
SPJ

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

so a while back i was having issues with my 308 and redding dies. so i did all sort of "tricks" like remove shell holder spring, put o-ring under lock nut so the die would "float", tried all the redding tricks like flipping bushing over, trying different amounts on the threaded cap that hold down the bushing, only necking down in increments of .004 bushings, the only thing i didn't do was try a lee collet die cause i couldn't find one, everytime i thought i fixed it, it was but a temporary random bit of luck followed by more random runout,,, BUT,,,,FAST FORWARD 3 WEEKS TO THE PRESENT

now i am loading for my 6.5 SAUM, once again, using a 250 dollar set of redding match full length bushing die and micrometer seater. on a t-7 press. my bushing is .289 which only brings it down .004 or less i believe. did all the usual stuff and AGAIN. it breaks my heart, my once fire or even twice fired brass has practically no run out but when i sized 20 rounds, it comes out with 16 of them having runout from .003 to .006, 4 of them had run out between .001 and .003. now this has been going on for a while, i have been ignoring the elephant in my garage as i reload, (THE BIG, FAT, HAIRY, SMELLY ELEPHANT"S NAME IS,,, EXCESSIVE RUNOUT!, by the way) and i can't ignore it anymore.

I don't care that redding says anything under .003 is fine!

how many people on here use redding dies with success in the run out/concentricity area? once again, i think as reloaders we should be able to put out a better product than factory, yet using my concentricity guage, my ammo is worse concentrically than factory stuff, (prime, federal, hornady)

i am measuring it on the same guage so there must be something to it even if my guage is not perfect. i am in a rush to get this load development thing behind me so I can rejoin society,,(hopefully rehabilitated) and i dont' have time to custom order some dies BUT IF i did, which ones should i get,,,? whidden?

am I alone out there?,,,, does no one else share my concentric pain?

i have good equipment, it shouldn't do this! what was that 80's movie where they yelled out the window " I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!"

that's me about runout.

- Have a look at exactly what your doing and if it is accomplishing the meant end result in each step of your reloading routine. - Slow down just a little bit, think about exactly what your starting out with as far as your brass & especially the neck dimension thickness. Spin some samples of your cleaned brass prior to actually starting the loading process that you know what your working with.

Yesterday I was loading some 300 WSM on Norma brass, neck turned, - I went back & checked thickness on the micrometer. No abnormalities but I looked at it to be sure. - The brass was once fired so I sized it in a Redding Body die to bump the shoulder 0.0015, while I was at it I took my micrometer & performed some measurements on the body at 0.200 above the case head & at the shoulder. I measured both clean once fired & then the sized brass. I spun a couple random samples on a 21st Century concentricity stand both fired & sized, again looking to see if anything is abnormal. - Then I sized the neck with a bushing to get my 0.003 neck tension in a custom made Newlon neck sizer that I had done when my barrels were chambered. - Again, I spun about 4 random samples as I was neck sizing it. - Normally I use a Wilson straight-line bullet seater that was again chambered when I had my barrels done, but I wanted to try the Redding Micrometer seater die in the die set to see how straight of loaded ammo it produced. - Out of the 99 rounds I loaded I managed to stay under 0.0015 for all of them & most were less than 0.001.

The point that I'm trying to make is check, check & check again - Don't just trust that everything is going to be perfect. Look at each step, try to identify ways to improve them so that the end result is as good as it can be. - I look at it this way, I can throw things together and that'll take a couple hours to do loading 100 rounds or I can spend more time along the way & get it correct so that when I've whipped the loaded rounds down & spun them they end up in the ammo box as they were meant to be instead of "culled" to be torn down or placed in a separate couple rows in that ammo box. - I want my sighters to be as good as what I'm intending on shooting for groups. I believe loading quality crafted ammo takes time and each step needs to be looked at as more than pulling handles on machines.

In closing to the OP, I'm not trying to be critical of you on a personal level. - I believe that if you slow down a little and do some meaningful checks along the way, providing you have the right tools to do so you can identify if & were there are problems in the process of reloading and then look at a solution to correct any found issue.

Regards - Ron -

 

[dellet]

After using that same press and die setup. I have solved quite a few issues with a good cleaning and adjust.

Have you looked at the simple things?

Clean and tight turret head
Ram to shell holder surface
Seating stem fits the bullet correctly, not pushing on the tip
Too much compression of powder

 

[Immike]

so a while back i was having issues with my 308 and redding dies. so i did all sort of "tricks" like remove shell holder spring, put o-ring under lock nut so the die would "float", tried all the redding tricks like flipping bushing over, trying different amounts on the threaded cap that hold down the bushing, only necking down in increments of .004 bushings, the only thing i didn't do was try a lee collet die cause i couldn't find one, everytime i thought i fixed it, it was but a temporary random bit of luck followed by more random runout,,, BUT,,,,FAST FORWARD 3 WEEKS TO THE PRESENT

now i am loading for my 6.5 SAUM, once again, using a 250 dollar set of redding match full length bushing die and micrometer seater. on a t-7 press. my bushing is .289 which only brings it down .004 or less i believe. did all the usual stuff and AGAIN. it breaks my heart, my once fire or even twice fired brass has practically no run out but when i sized 20 rounds, it comes out with 16 of them having runout from .003 to .006, 4 of them had run out between .001 and .003. now this has been going on for a while, i have been ignoring the elephant in my garage as i reload, (THE BIG, FAT, HAIRY, SMELLY ELEPHANT"S NAME IS,,, EXCESSIVE RUNOUT!, by the way) and i can't ignore it anymore.

I don't care that redding says anything under .003 is fine!

how many people on here use redding dies with success in the run out/concentricity area? once again, i think as reloaders we should be able to put out a better product than factory, yet using my concentricity guage, my ammo is worse concentrically than factory stuff, (prime, federal, hornady)

i am measuring it on the same guage so there must be something to it even if my guage is not perfect. i am in a rush to get this load development thing behind me so I can rejoin society,,(hopefully rehabilitated) and i dont' have time to custom order some dies BUT IF i did, which ones should i get,,,? whidden?

am I alone out there?,,,, does no one else share my concentric pain?

i have good equipment, it shouldn't do this! what was that 80's movie where they yelled out the window " I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!"

that's me about runout.

Try the 21st century’s seater, made for your sized cases. Load developer friendly equipment

 

[Lucky6547]

Do you have a single stage press to try your dies on? I would think a rotating head press would have all sorts of concentricity issues built in...

 

[Fotheringill]

OP-

Might I suggest an investment in a Lee Collet neck sizing die for under $30 shipped? For the price of a round of beers for the gang, you might very well be quite pleasantly surprised.

 

[Thud]

I would suggest getting rid of your t-7 press and go to a single stage press or a Wilson type die and an arbor press. Less movement.

 

[Sheldon N]

I also found bushing dies to give more runout for me. If you want an alternate "zero runout" approach to sizing...

Forster FL non-bushing die. Have Forster hone the neck of the die to 0.004 smaller than the neck OD of a loaded round. Costs only $12.
Remove the internal expander ball from the sizing die.
Set final neck tension with a separate expander mandrel die.

 

[Richard Coody]

I also found bushing dies to give more runout for me. If you want an alternate "zero runout" approach to sizing...

Forster FL non-bushing die. Have Forster hone the neck of the die to 0.004 smaller than the neck OD of a loaded round. Costs only $12.
Remove the internal expander ball from the sizing die.
Set final neck tension with a separate expander mandrel die.

excellent sugestion!

k&m make a selection of expander mandrels in .0005 increments

 

[retired]

.004 IS WAY TOO MUCH NECK TENSION even for a gas gun.
i use 1-2 on bolt guns 2-3 on gas guns.
if you are pulling an expander thru your necks
GO THROW IT AWAY

 

[Milo 2.0]

.004 IS WAY TOO MUCH NECK TENSION even for a gas gun.
i use 1-2 on bolt guns 2-3 on gas guns.
if you are pulling an expander thru your necks
GO THROW IT AWAY

You can spin anything, not what he said.

 

[Grimstod]

 

[rockwind1]

Do you have a single stage press to try your dies on? I would think a rotating head press would have all sorts of concentricity issues built in...

Hi, yes, I have an old rock chucker. I was using it with my 308 Reading dies and I was getting the same type of run out. I was really jazzed when I got my T7 thinking it would solve my problems. Anyways, going to work on some attempts to fix this weekend

 

[Scott Harris]

... my bushing is .289 which only brings it down .004 or less i believe. ... my once fire or even twice fired brass has practically no run out but when i sized 20 rounds, it comes out with 16 of them having runout from .003 to .006, ....

Hi Rockwind, your dilemma is pretty simple and you have answered your own question...
1. Your fired brass has zero runout and your sized brass has significantly more runout. Therefore, either your die or your press or both are adding runout to fired brass that starts with perfect dimensions.
2. You also mention you tried two different presses and floated the dies with no improvement....problem is likely the die.
3. The one thing I don't see you trying is a different die. In particular, you should try a non-bushing die. I suspect if you do so with a good straight die, the runout will improve significantly.

I have used non-bushing dies for quite a few years for exactly the reason you describe. Dies should not add to or increase runout, but F/L bushing dies seem to do this. In many cases, I think the problem is the bushing and not the die. In any case, switching to non-bushing dies reduces the runout to next to nothing if you have good dies.

The other thing to remember is the more you size your case, the more you are likely to create runout. If it comes out of the chamber perfect, the less you mess with it the better it will stay that way. For example, sizing the neck too much will induce runout. What is too much....your concentrity gauge will tell you.

PS. I use custom F/L non-bushing sizing dies and Redding Seaters. Runout at the bullet is zero on about half the cases and .001 or less on the rest. Good dies make the difference.