I see the naysayers as mostly F-Class shooters. The difference in accuracy and the game is entirely different then BR. I saw many relays where .001 to .010 was the difference between winning and going home. I saw one relay where there were 3, three inch 10 shot groups fired and 3, 100 scores. Imagine, shooting near a world record and you go home and didn't shoot the shootoff. Matt
Is your aiming accuracy @1000 comparable to one kernel?
- Thread starter Marksman63
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6MMsteve
Gold $$ Contributor
the Germans thought they had the smallest drill bit in the world till the Japanese took their drill bit and drilled right thru the center of it
6MMsteve
Gold $$ Contributor
this was back way back, internet was a upside down trout line
6MMsteve
Gold $$ Contributor
Practical Machinist story
A kernel of H4895 is .01666667 on the average. I weigh charges to .010. In case that I am loading 31.1, yes it matters.It is those who shoot larger capacity case it may not but many are using larger stick powder that weighs even more. The other variable is your gun doesn't shoot good enough to tell the difference..... jim
Medic505
Gold $$ Contributor
But nobody wants to admit that! My AR will shoot in the sub .1's all day as long as I do my part. Or, until the second shot is fired....
My AR space gun will shoot in .3 @ 100 for 10 shots with 8208xbr and 77 gr. gr MK. Off a bipod with a 6 power scope. For that gun I think it is as good as I can do with thrown charges from a Harrells powder measure and a progressive loader....... different discipline and a different standard....... jim
Well gentleman I know that there's a lot of shooters go the extra mile that's great if you can do that more power to you shooting the sport I love is try not an embarrassing my self an enjoy the new friends that we meet at these matches I will just have to try an earn the long range marksman point with the way I have opportunities to tune if I don't shoot good on a given day I look good doing it an maybe meet a new shooter an help keep him interested in our long range sport.
There’s a fairly good explanation about kernel accuracy on Adams Auto Trickler website, it’s called “How accurate do I need to be”.
It claims there that one kernel of Varget equates to 1.16fps.
It’s an interesting and informative read.
Cheers Rushty
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The average weight of a kernel of Varget is ~1.4 mg, or approximately 0.022 gr. For H4895, the values are 1.1 mg, or about 0.017 gr. Each powder kernel's average weight will be different, in some cases by a lot. The theoretical effect of a single kernel on velocity is equal to:
(average weight of a kernel/ total charge weight) x average velocity
As expected from the above equation, the effect will vary depending on the average weight of a kernel of the specific powder used, the charge weight, and the average velocity achieved in that specific load.
The question originally posed by the OP was, "Is your aiming accuracy @1000 yd comparable to one kernel?". The specific answer to that should be "No". Anyone claiming to be able to hold a finer increment at 1000 yd than the vertical produced by about a 1-2 fps velocity variance (or less) is pulling your leg, or simply trying to BS you. The amount to which that amount of powder will affect velocity falls well under the SD for even very good loads, and is approaching or below the limit of detection for most chronographs. Nor is it ever possible to state with any certainty that someone lost a match because they didn't weight their powder to the same precision that someone else did. That type of information is always going to be anecdotal at best. No one will ever know how they might have done if they did something different with an effect as small as one kernel of powder. I'm absolutely certain that there are those that absolutely believe they can, but they're fooling themselves.
Winning or losing in a match by ridiculously small measurements is never proof of what actually caused the group to be infinitesimally larger or smaller. It might have been charge weight variance, it might have been neck tension variance, it might have been a difference in primer brisance, it might have been a little puff of breeze the shooter didn't see, it might have been a trigger error by the shooter. There are dozens of potential reasons why a group might be ever so slightly larger or smaller, and when the differences are extremely small, you'll never really know the exact underlying cause, even if you choose to believe you can, because you can never know what you would have shot if something were different.
However (and this is really the most important aspect of the OPs question IMO), why would you NOT weigh powder to the highest level of precision you possibly can, time and equipment allowing? If you weigh powder to +/- half a kernel (I do), you will never, ever, ever have to worry about it in a match. I can never prove I won a match because I weigh powder to this level of precision, it might have been some other reason. I can never prove I lost a match because I didn't weigh powder to this level of precision, it might have been some other reason. What I CAN do is to make absolutely certain that wherever possible, I hold the tolerances for a specific load well below what I can actually shoot. Weighing powder is one place where I can do this with minimal time and effort. It costs some $$$ to buy a quality force restoration balance, but they last almost forever, if properly cared for, so IMO they are a good investment for LR reloading/shooting. At that point, the precision to which you weigh powder simply ceases to be a consideration, allowing you to worry about other things that you may not be able to control as well as powder weight variance.
A good friend of mine and member here at AS (Steve Blair) made a statement about reloading that has always stuck with me. You can choose to do some potentially painful step (in terms of time and $$$) in the reloading process, or you can choose not to do it. However, you can always be pretty certain that at least some of your competitors WILL be doing it. So even if any advantage of that particular step is small, or even possibly un-measurable, you still have to make the decision to incorporate it or not into your reloading scheme based on the knowledge that other people will be doing it.
(average weight of a kernel/ total charge weight) x average velocity
As expected from the above equation, the effect will vary depending on the average weight of a kernel of the specific powder used, the charge weight, and the average velocity achieved in that specific load.
The question originally posed by the OP was, "Is your aiming accuracy @1000 yd comparable to one kernel?". The specific answer to that should be "No". Anyone claiming to be able to hold a finer increment at 1000 yd than the vertical produced by about a 1-2 fps velocity variance (or less) is pulling your leg, or simply trying to BS you. The amount to which that amount of powder will affect velocity falls well under the SD for even very good loads, and is approaching or below the limit of detection for most chronographs. Nor is it ever possible to state with any certainty that someone lost a match because they didn't weight their powder to the same precision that someone else did. That type of information is always going to be anecdotal at best. No one will ever know how they might have done if they did something different with an effect as small as one kernel of powder. I'm absolutely certain that there are those that absolutely believe they can, but they're fooling themselves.
Winning or losing in a match by ridiculously small measurements is never proof of what actually caused the group to be infinitesimally larger or smaller. It might have been charge weight variance, it might have been neck tension variance, it might have been a difference in primer brisance, it might have been a little puff of breeze the shooter didn't see, it might have been a trigger error by the shooter. There are dozens of potential reasons why a group might be ever so slightly larger or smaller, and when the differences are extremely small, you'll never really know the exact underlying cause, even if you choose to believe you can, because you can never know what you would have shot if something were different.
However (and this is really the most important aspect of the OPs question IMO), why would you NOT weigh powder to the highest level of precision you possibly can, time and equipment allowing? If you weigh powder to +/- half a kernel (I do), you will never, ever, ever have to worry about it in a match. I can never prove I won a match because I weigh powder to this level of precision, it might have been some other reason. I can never prove I lost a match because I didn't weigh powder to this level of precision, it might have been some other reason. What I CAN do is to make absolutely certain that wherever possible, I hold the tolerances for a specific load well below what I can actually shoot. Weighing powder is one place where I can do this with minimal time and effort. It costs some $$$ to buy a quality force restoration balance, but they last almost forever, if properly cared for, so IMO they are a good investment for LR reloading/shooting. At that point, the precision to which you weigh powder simply ceases to be a consideration, allowing you to worry about other things that you may not be able to control as well as powder weight variance.
A good friend of mine and member here at AS (Steve Blair) made a statement about reloading that has always stuck with me. You can choose to do some potentially painful step (in terms of time and $$$) in the reloading process, or you can choose not to do it. However, you can always be pretty certain that at least some of your competitors WILL be doing it. So even if any advantage of that particular step is small, or even possibly un-measurable, you still have to make the decision to incorporate it or not into your reloading scheme based on the knowledge that other people will be doing it.
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And that is assuming a completely linear relationship with charge weight and velocity.....but, that does not reconcile with ladder velocity tests and the reported velocity 'plateaus'. Hmmmmm
Yes it’s a ‘ball park’.. still leads to the same conclusion that aiming accuracy at 1000 isn’t comparable to a single kernel.And that is assuming a completely linear relationship with charge weight and velocity.....but, that does not reconcile with ladder velocity tests and the reported velocity 'plateaus'. Hmmmmm
Cheers Rushty
Best answer yet
DJSBRS
Site $$ Sponsor
Finally I get an answer that is reasonable. I was beginning to think there were some idiots out there that was counting every kernel to make sure they got their full 30.60 grains of kernels.
Thanks for your informative response to an insane question.
DJ
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I think there are some assumptions being made. One would be that by not weighing to the kernel your only 1 kernel off. If your not weighing with a scale thats capable of weighing to the kernel, your more than 1 kernel off....
Ok are you saying they have to weigh to one little bitty kernel to get the groups there happy with just asking.PS at a 1000yds
dmoran
Donovan Moran
With vast indifference to single kernel weight, density, and size variations between powder types, can't help but think perceptions of "one kernel" are distorted in the discussions here as well. Especially when it can take numerous kernels of one powder to equal the single kernel weight of another powder.
Donovan
Donovan
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Talking 1k br with a 6br type case where the really small node is +/- 4 kernels. You dont have to weight to the kernel but you better be +/- 2 kernels. If not you wont be shooting sub 2" vertical. Thats my opinion bases on what I have seen. If 5" of vertical is the goal at 1k, then no you dont need to weigh to the kernel but you also wont be winning a lot.
I would bet if your not "weighing to the kernel" you probably not weighing +/- 2 kernels. Probably more like +/- .1 grain with a beam scale or even worse with the less expensive electric scales. My charge master will tell be I am exactly on the right charge but the lab scale shows it can be off .2 and still tell me Im dead on.
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