Is your aiming accuracy @1000 comparable to one kernel?

[dmoran]

Matt Jim ohara is proved that wrong number of times. PS if you have tune at a 100yds an it works at a 1000yds you better remember what you did to keep a good tune.

The way I see it, while many of his 100yd developed loads proved out well at 1000, there was others that did not. When they did they did, but when they didn't they didn't, that were at the sacrifice of matches to find out.
When we tune at the intended distance, we know what we have going into a match, not at the mercy of what is hoped to work, or at the mercy of the match to find out.
Donovan

 

[Alex Wheeler]

To try and get back on point I just remembered a real life instance from last year. One of my customers shooting his 6BRA TIED the NBRSA 600yd 6 target group agg. Thats 6 10 shot tagets. The agg was 2.839" and he tied it down to the thousandth of an inch. He only needed to find .001" over 60 shots at 600 yards! I bet if he could go back in time he would be cutting kernels in half...

 

[Stan Taylor]

The way I see it, while many of his 100yd developed loads proved out well at 1000, there was others that did not. When they did they did, but when they didn't they didn't at all, and were at the sacrifice of matches to find out.
When we tune at the intended distance, we know what we have going into a match, not at the mercy of what is hoped to work, or at the mercy of the match to find out.
Donovan

You are absolutely right on point Donavan but a lot of us that can't tune at the distance we shoot has to improvise overcome an adapt an hope you are competitive on game day if I do well I try an keep after it if I don't I back up an punt great folks we shoot with that's why I continue on the journey lot of competitive folks an good folks remember something Donavan you can always tell a marine you just can't tell him much look at me.LOL

 

[Marksman63]

To try and get back on point I just remembered a real life instance from last year. One of my customers shooting his 6BRA TIED the NBRSA 600yd 6 target group agg. Thats 6 10 shot tagets. The agg was 2.839" and he tied it down to the thousandth of an inch. He only needed to find .001" over 60 shots at 600 yards! I bet if he could go back in time he would be cutting kernels in half...

As said, too many more critical variables to attribute it to half a kernel..., IMHO

 

[Joe Salt]

Alex you are absolutely right My buddy, I got into 1000 yard shooting does cut kernels in half and he has one of the best shooting Dashers at Williamsport! I was at his house one day while he was loading and he had his razor blade next to his Sartorius and it was reading .000 when he was done. I'm just a one kernel guy myself.

Joe Salt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

As said, too many more critical variables to attribute it to half a kernel..., IMHO

All the other variables were what they were. He shot a 2.839" agg with all those variables. If one kernel of powder shaved off .001" of vertical on just one group he would hold that record. I am not seeing why its so hard to see that adding variables to a smaller potential group is better than adding variables to a larger potential group.

 

[ttfreestyle]

I cut kernels because I try to Make the things within my control as perfect as possible. I can’t control the conditions, I simply do the best I can with conditions. Troy

 

[Marksman63]

All the other variables were what they were. He shot a 2.839" agg with all those variables. If one kernel of powder shaved off .001" of vertical on just one group he would hold that record. I am not seeing why its so hard to see that adding variables to a smaller potential group is better than adding variables to a larger potential group.

I have a question for you. Do you sort your bullets and your cases with a half kernel accuracy? I mean, i.e. do you sort your bullets' weights in .00Xgr lots or your cases' volume weight in .00Xgr lots?
Are you able to drop or remove kernels from your water filled cases?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have a question for you. Do you sort your bullets and your cases with a half kernel accuracy? I mean, i.e. do you sort your bullets' weights in .00Xgr lots or your cases' volume weight in .00Xgr lots?
Are you able to drop or remove kernels from your water filled cases?

Over the years, I have narrowed down the things that my testing has shown to be worth while. I dont sort 6br cases, I was not able to prove that I could do it in a way that showed on target, same with weighing bullets. However I do measure base to ogive and weigh powder to the kernel. If you think I am giving my assumptions or opinions, you'd be wrong.

 

[dolek]

Damn,that troll really stinks up the place ...

 

[retired]

again.
listen to marksperson
he does not want to do the work others do.
he wants others to justify his lazy behavior.
he simply ignores the facts and continues on with
HIS opinion.
done, one more on the wood pile(ignore list)

 

[Marksman63]

Over the years, I have narrowed down the things that my testing has shown to be worth while. I dont sort 6br cases, I was not able to prove that I could do it in a way that showed on target, same with weighing bullets. However I do measure base to ogive and weigh powder to the kernel. If you think I am giving my assumptions or opinions, you'd be wrong.

I do weight to the maximum accuracy my scale allows, as well, and absolutely I don not want to convince anybody but just triggering a discussion which I think it's very interesting so far.
I am a F Class TR shooter probably not at top levels but neither at lowest, I think (I keep an European record @800yds 15 shots). I am an engineer as well, and my personal attitude is trying to have a rationale for any phenomenon, such as how and if "one kernel" could affect our accuracy @1000.
I apologize if I have hurt someone, it was not my intention. Amleto Gabellone

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I do weight to the maximum accuracy my scale allows, as well, and absolutely I don not want to convince anybody but just triggering a discussion which I think it's very interesting so far.
I am a F Class TR shooter probably not at top levels but neither at lowest, I think (I keep an European record @800yds 15 shots). I am an engineer as well, and my personal attitude is trying to have a rationale for any phenomenon, such as how and if "one kernel" could affect our accuracy @1000.
I apologize if I have hurt someone, it was not my intention. Amleto Gabellone

It has been a good discussion. Something I hope everyone can take away from it is to go out and test this stuff. There are things that "should" show on the target but dont, and there are things you wouldnt think could possibly matter that do. Anytime we let our education, opinions, common sense, whatever, get in the way of actually going outside and testing this stuff on paper we are shorting ourselves. As an example of one thing where I was wrong was seating force. To me it seems like it would matter greatly, and it may, just not enough for me to decipher it. I was loading for a match in the hotel the night before. I forgot my good brass and had to load what I had. Seating force was all over the map. ES of 20 psi. That produced a 4.1" 10 shot group. Which was not my smallest, but was very close. I still would sort out the bad ones, but seating force is way down my list of concerns after some more testing. Neck tension on the other hand is huge, but seating force is not a direct measure of it.

 

[johara1]

It has been a good discussion. Something I hope everyone can take away from it is to go out and test this stuff. There are things that "should" show on the target but dont, and there are things you wouldnt think could possibly matter that do. Anytime we let our education, opinions, common sense, whatever, get in the way of actually going outside and testing this stuff on paper we are shorting ourselves. As an example of one thing where I was wrong was seating force. To me it seems like it would matter greatly, and it may, just not enough for me to decipher it. I was loading for a match in the hotel the night before. I forgot my good brass and had to load what I had. Seating force was all over the map. ES of 20 psi. That produced a 4.1" 10 shot group. Which was not my smallest, but was very close. I still would sort out the bad ones, but seating force is way down my list of concerns after some more testing. Neck tension on the other hand is huge, but seating force is not a direct measure of it.

I use the seating force numbers to tell me my neck tension is uniform, uniform neck tension is less vertical. Also .01 in powder variation is less vertical, that is close as I can go with H4895, RL-15 and 8208xbr. Never leave anything on the table, never say thats good enough....... jim

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I agree Jim. Just that seating force didnt equal neck tension for me and neck tension showed on target while seating force didnt. Still if I was loading for a match I would sort by seating force just in case.

 

[johara1]

I cut kernels because I try to Make the things within my control as perfect as possible. I can’t control the conditions, I simply do the best I can with conditions. Troy

That is good to do the best you can do, but cutting kernels of powder changes the burning rate......... you get it to one kernel is good......... jim

 

[johara1]

I agree Jim. Just that seating force didnt equal neck tension for me and neck tension showed on target while seating force didnt. Still if I was loading for a match I would sort by seating force just in case.

You got it bud....... I also have a new barrel that the wind does seem to push around, it comes off tonight........ jim

 

[Stan Taylor]

Of course if we load the wrong recipe, they won't shoot if we hold one millionth of a kernel!

Tom

How much does 7 kernels of h4895 weight on your scale.

 

[people]

For the challenge? To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever shot a 250-25x (i.e. five target clean) yet in HBR or VFS...

What is HBR and VFS? I just see no reason to shoot groups at 100 or even 300yds

 

[memilanuk]

What is HBR and VFS? I just see no reason to shoot groups at 100 or even 300yds

Forms of Benchrest: Hunter Benchrest, and Varmint For Score. Both shot on score targets, with a sighter bull and five record bulls. The 'X' @ 100yds is 1/16". Match formats are usually 100/200yds, with 300 being 'long range' (in their world). Seven minutes for unlimited sighters, with five record shots (one on each bull), and you can go back to the sighter at any point during your time. A normal match is five targets (250 pt agg).

It might be 'only' 100yds... but trust me, its harder that it sounds. Like I said earlier... to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever shot a 250-25X. Clean, yes. Hit that damn little dot every single time... not so much.