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Experience w/ Hornady Headspace Comparator?

So the argument becomes that a cartridge does not have a headspace dimension. Using the .308 Winchester cartridge as just an example and referring to the actual SAAMI drawings here is what we get:

This is not to challenge you directly Ron . You just opened up the opportunity for me to say what I've been saying on many other forums .

Actually it does because we the community over the years have chose to say it does and use the term quite often . That's how language works , why do you think English is so fun to learn . The group as a whole except or shuns an idea . We as a whole have chosen to except case head space rather cartridge head space because the cartridge includes the case , primer , powder and bullet . To measure case head space you only need one of those things , the case .

I could go into great detail as to how terms and or words evolve over time . The best example right now is Hack/s . Somewhere in the last 10 years or so it has become a term to mean a good thing , way to best achieve something quickly etc . In my day it also meant many things but they were always bad . Like he did a hack job or you're a hack . 30yrs ago hack/s never meant how good , smart and innovative you were . I'm coming around to that one but it still bothers me but as you said

Personally rather than swim against the currents or fly into a headwind

is how I think about it as well . That doesn't mean I have to like it :p
 
This is not to challenge you directly Ron . You just opened up the opportunity for me to say what I've been saying on many other forums .

Actually it does because we the community over the years have chose to say it does and use the term quite often . That's how language works , why do you think English is so fun to learn . The group as a whole except or shuns an idea . We as a whole have chosen to except case head space rather cartridge head space because the cartridge includes the case , primer , powder and bullet . To measure case head space you only need one of those things , the case .

I could go into great detail as to how terms and or words evolve over time . The best example right now is Hack/s . Somewhere in the last 10 years or so it has become a term to mean a good thing , way to best achieve something quickly etc . In my day it also meant many things but they were always bad . Like he did a hack job or you're a hack . 30yrs ago hack/s never meant how good , smart and innovative you were . I'm coming around to that one but it still bothers me but as you said



is how I think about it as well . That doesn't mean I have to like it :p
I agree that when a majority accept a term that is simply the way it is. I just wanted to be clear before I used the term "headspace gauge" and had another member display a picture of what I have called a headspace gauge for decades. When it comes to gauging within the industry and I use a term and you understand the term or what I am referring to I really don't see where it matters much. I know what I am trying to convey to you and you understand exactly what I am conveying so as I see it everything is good. :) Yes, and I recall looking at something as a "hack job". Maybe someday I'll have cause to post some pictures of an M1 Garand operating rod which someone worked on before I replaced it.

Ron
 
Ron Blain said
"The question is does it matter and I do not see where it matters."

It matters a good bit to me. I collect military rifles including bubbas and clunkers as long as they have a nice bore. Most of them are odd metric calibers for which there are no headspace gages.
If I can match an existing gunsmith headspace gage shoulder included angle I can get a good measurement of the rifle's chamber length. If the chamber is long it might indicate the locking shoulders are set back.
My only other method is to take fired cases to work and measure with a 50" optical comparator at 20X magnification.
Yes I am aware that CIP DRAWINGS do not use the SAAMI headspace drawing conventions. However I have an EXCEL spreadsheet that does the trigonometry to convert the CIP numbers into SAAMI format numbers.
I have rifles of the same chambering with differing chamber lengths. Now I know which one is correct and which is long.
Using this process I have 4 rifles in 7.65 Mauser that are all the same length. They correspond exactly to the length calculated from the CIP drawings and I have NO gunsmith gages for the 7.65 Mauser. I do have the 7.65 Mauser Wilson case gage and it matches my numbers exactly too. If I run into a pile of cheap ammo I can avoid shooting in a chamber that is too long. Fortunately PPU and Norma make brass that is very close to the CIP drawing numbers in length.
 
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Ron Blain said
"The question is does it matter and I do not see where it matters."

It matters a good bit to me. I collect military rifles including bubbas and clunkers as long as they have a nice bore. Most of them are odd metric calibers for which there are no headspace gages.
If I can match an existing gunsmith headspace gage shoulder included angle I can get a good measurement of the rifle's chamber length. If the chamber is long it might indicate the locking shoulders are set back.
My only other method is to take fired cases to work and measure with a 50" optical comparator at 20X magnification.
Yes I am aware that CIP DRAWINGS do not use the SAAMI headspace drawing conventions. However I have an EXCEL spreadsheet that does the trigonometry to convert the CIP numbers into SAAMI format numbers.
I have rifles of the same chambering with differing chamber lengths. Now I know which one is correct and which is long.
Using this process I have 4 rifles in 7.65 Mauser that are all the same length. They correspond exactly to the length calculated from the CIP drawings and I have NO gunsmith gages for the 7.65 Mauser. I do have the 7.65 Mauser Wilson case gage and it matches my numbers exactly too. If I run into a pile of cheap ammo I can avoid shooting in a chamber that is too long. Fortunately PPU and Norma make brass that is very close to the CIP drawing numbers in length.
My point here was with the use of a widely accepted term. If you and I are in agreement as to what a term means then we each know what the other is talking about. That is my only point. This is also getting away from the topic of the original post as to the Hornady gauge.

Ron
 
I feel it's important to understand that it's a "comparator" and is not designed to give the actual measurement . Mine "measures" a 308 GO-gauge .010 short .
Exactly... mine is somewhere around 0.005 to 0.006 short, and i suspect will become shorter with wear on the gauge... the short reading comes from the radius where the i.d. edge is 'broken' to keep from catching/scoring the case shoulder.

for a full and complete discussion, ask member f. guffey :)
 
"Exactly... mine is somewhere around 0.005 to 0.006 short, and i suspect will become shorter with wear".

Its why I tossed the original inserts (Stoney Point) and made my own using steel and or brass.
984j0z.jpg

The five on the top row are bored-honed to exactly .330", .350", .375", .400" and .420" and those on the two bottom rows .002" under their respective bullet shank diameters. #2(L-R) on the second row is an extension I made so I can use the same inserts when measuring the bump/to the land length of assembled ammo.
My 308 family Go w/ the .400" insert.....
vskjk6.jpg

The No Go
10nujc4.jpg

...and measuring the Head Clearance" :D of a stick of 308 brass...
2ugotad.jpg


Bill
 
"Exactly... mine is somewhere around 0.005 to 0.006 short, and i suspect will become shorter with wear".

Its why I tossed the original inserts (Stoney Point) and made my own using steel and or brass.
984j0z.jpg

The five on the top row are bored-honed to exactly .330", .350", .375", .400" and .420" and those on the two bottom rows .002" under their respective bullet shank diameters. #2(L-R) on the second row is an extension I made so I can use the same inserts when measuring the bump/to the land length of assembled ammo.
My 308 family Go w/ the .400" insert.....
vskjk6.jpg

The No Go
10nujc4.jpg

...and measuring the Head Clearance" :D of a stick of 308 brass...
2ugotad.jpg


Bill
Really nice set. While I don't really miss work since retiring I miss the sweet little proto-typing machine shop I had access to as well as some great machinist and mechanical engineers.

Ron
 
so if you boss always wrote your pay check for $500 less that was correct, it would be ok if just kept doing it.
sorry mis-use of a word does not make it correct.
headspace is a well defined term by the standard in american ammo.
This is not to challenge you directly Ron . You just opened up the opportunity for me to say what I've been saying on many other forums .

Actually it does because we the community over the years have chose to say it does and use the term quite often . That's how language works , why do you think English is so fun to learn . The group as a whole except or shuns an idea . We as a whole have chosen to except case head space rather cartridge head space because the cartridge includes the case , primer , powder and bullet . To measure case head space you only need one of those things , the case .

I could go into great detail as to how terms and or words evolve over time . The best example right now is Hack/s . Somewhere in the last 10 years or so it has become a term to mean a good thing , way to best achieve something quickly etc . In my day it also meant many things but they were always bad . Like he did a hack job or you're a hack . 30yrs ago hack/s never meant how good , smart and innovative you were . I'm coming around to that one but it still bothers me but as you said



is how I think about it as well . That doesn't mean I have to like it :p
 
( so if you boss always wrote your pay check for $500 less that was correct, it would be ok if just kept doing it.
sorry mis-use of a word does not make it correct.
)

Really that’s what you got out of that . That does not even deserve a responce .
 
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So are we done discussing the Hornady gauge?

Oh yes , I knew there was one very close minded person on ALL these forums . Had no idea he had followers .

Maybe they don't understand the concept of a compound word . You know , where you take two different words and smash then together to make a whole new word .

Hmm , lets see can I think of a compound word that would apply's here . Let me think .............................. head/space:cool:

There are three different types of compound words:

  • Closed form: Two words are joined together to create a new meaning (firefly, softball, redhead, keyboard, makeup, notebook).
  • Hyphenated form: Words are joined together by a hyphen (daughter-in-law, over-the-counter, six-year-old).
  • Open form: Words are open but when read together, a new meaning is formed (post office, real estate, full moon). case headspace
https://www.spellingcity.com/compound-words.html
 
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How about the term rock and roll? What does it mean if your boss does not like it?
You do not want to go down the rat hole called English.

so if you boss always wrote your pay check for $500 less that was correct, it would be ok if just kept doing it.
sorry mis-use of a word does not make it correct.
headspace is a well defined term by the standard in american ammo.
 
You do not want to go down the rat hole called English.

Sure they do as long as it's defined the way they want it . Who cares about a 1000 years of English evolution . Could you imagine what are sentences would look like if we only had the words from 500 years ago . I guess we would not have to worry about the word "cartridge" no wait there are still film cartridges and video game cartridges . Hmm well we know videos games were not around when the firearm cartridge was invented so those pesky gamers need to find a new word . lol:D
 
"Exactly... mine is somewhere around 0.005 to 0.006 short, and i suspect will become shorter with wear".

Its why I tossed the original inserts (Stoney Point) and made my own using steel and or brass.
984j0z.jpg


Bill

Surprised that nobody mentioned the stainless inserts from Sinclair for both bullet and case comparators. These are much more heavy duty that the aluminum inserts from Hornady and even have a nice foam lined box available.
 
You made my point.
Cartridge is a French loan word.
late 16th century: from French cartouche (feminine noun), from Italian cartoccio (see cartouche).

Ketchup is a Chinese loan word.
Is lead a metal or the act of guiding?
Who cares about what you say right?


Sure they do as long as it's defined the way they want it . Who cares about a 1000 years of English evolution . Could you imagine what are sentences would look like if we only had the words from 500 years ago . I guess we would not have to worry about the word "cartridge" no wait there are still film cartridges and video game cartridges . Hmm well we know videos games were not around when the firearm cartridge was invented so those pesky gamers need to find a new word . lol:D
 
the hornady tool works very well. use it as a comparator like boyd allen said. comes with 5 sizes for different cartridges. it measures from a point on the shoulder. you have 3 different 308 rifles, get a set of redding competition shell holders. with them you will probably be able to pick a shell holder and jam the bottom of the sizing die with the shell holder when sizing in order to get the proper shoulder set back. each rifle may require a different shell holder, maybe not. keep notes as to which works with each particular rifle. the ability to set up to jam the shell holder against the sizing die makes sizing die set up quick easy and repeatable.
 

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