CCI BR-4 Primers failure to fire

[kvd]

Im done with the br4s i will try cci 450s after the weekend

Man - CCI 450's may be out of the skillet and into the fire. If anything, CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers may be even worse.

 

[Tony1320]

Man - CCI 450's may be out of the skillet and into the fire. If anything, CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers may be even worse.

I'm not sure what you mean by the 450s may be out of the skillet and into the fire.

According to cci the 450s have the same cup as the br4 but with a different primer mix.

Several members of the Canadian f class team switched to the 450s after having the same issue as me and never had a problem since so its my next step to try

So of the 30 rounds I fired today, 8 of them failed to fire

 

[NorCalMikie]

Im done with the br4s i will try cci 450s after the weekend

And you STILL havn't figured out why you're having FTF.
Bush the firing pin. Get new springs. Spend more $$. That should get it.
It's only money.

 

[Tony1320]

And you STILL havn't figured out why you're having FTF.
Bush the firing pin. Get new springs. Spend more $$. That should get it.
It's only money.

I'm fairly confident it's the primer at this point after talking with others that had the same issue with recent lots of br4s. I was hoping it was a shoulder or seating depth issue but I eliminated that this morning.

If I still have issue with the 450s next is a new firing pin spring but I have a hard time believing that's the issue when there's no issue firing br2s

 

[Greyfox]

I'm fairly confident it's the primer at this point after talking with others that had the same issue with recent lots of br4s. I was hoping it was a shoulder or seating depth issue but I eliminated that this morning.

If I still have issue with the 450s next is a new firing pin spring but I have a hard time believing that's the issue when there's no issue firing br2s

So, let me see if I understand this. You have had no problem with FTF until this most recent batch of new brass, right? But suddenly your firing pin spring is bad or something else is a problem with your rifle? I seriously don't think so. If you only pulled the bullets, dumped the powder and changed to new primers, refilled the powder, then reseated the bullet, you didn't change anything. Especially if you didn't seat the bullet longer. I do hope you at least resized the brass. Until you do something to get that brass to fire and form to your chamber, you won't change anything. The problem is not the primer, it's the headspace. Do you seriously believe that after thousands and thousands of good BR-4s, they suddenly made a hundred that had 8 bad ones? Think about it.

Rick

 

[Tony1320]

So, let me see if I understand this. You have had no problem with FTF until this most recent batch of new brass, right? But suddenly your firing pin spring is bad or something else is a problem with your rifle? I seriously don't think so. If you only pulled the bullets, dumped the powder and changed to new primers, refilled the powder, then reseated the bullet, you didn't change anything. Especially if you didn't seat the bullet longer. I do hope you at least resized the brass. Until you do something to get that brass to fire and form to your chamber, you won't change anything. The problem is not the primer, it's the headspace. Do you seriously believe that after thousands and thousands of good BR-4s, they suddenly made a hundred that had 8 bad ones? Think about it.

Rick

I have no problems with my standard Lapua brass and BR2s thats right.

I switched to Lapua Palma brass to try the 200.20x's so I started with Virgin brass. The 30 rounds I shot this morning were once fired with the shoulders set back just enough to chamber the case as suggested in this thread (.001-.002). 8 of these rounds still did not fire. I don't believe headspace is an issue at this point. Earlier I tried taking a batch of rounds with the bullets seated .010 jam and still had primers fail to fire.

I'm not sure whats going on with them but I know I'm not the only one having issues if several members of the Canadian f class team have switched for the same issue.

 

[Webster]

I'm fairly confident it's the primer at this point after talking with others that had the same issue with recent lots of br4s. I was hoping it was a shoulder or seating depth issue but I eliminated that this morning.

If I still have issue with the 450s next is a new firing pin spring but I have a hard time believing that's the issue when there's no issue firing br2s

If you get a firing pin spring make sure it's the chrome silicon alloy, not plain carbon music wire. The music wire springs can lose tension quickly. The Cr-Si alloy retains tension forever. It's the same alloy used for race car valve springs.

Remove your bolt and look at the back where the cocking piece protrudes out of the shroud. Look at it cocked also. Almost all of the friction related to firing pin release is the cocking piece sliding thru the bolt shroud. Look for shiny rubbing spots on the cocking piece. I have rubbing marks on my Rem 700 BDL in at least three areas. I take the bolt out and soak the area with oil then remove the excess with a rag. It only makes sense that critical areas sliding against each other should have oil on them.

 

[M-61]

If I have this correct: This morning you took previously fired brass (in your rifle) sized it, DID NOT bump the shoulder (means you had to readjust your die), and loaded the cases. These are the ones that FTF??

 

[Tony1320]

If I have this correct: This morning you took previously fired brass (in your rifle) sized it, DID NOT bump the shoulder (means you had to readjust your die), and loaded the cases. These are the ones that FTF??

Yes that is correct i took 30 previously fired cases and resized the case, bumping the shoulder just enough to be able to chamber the case as a fired one wouldnt chamber

8 of these did not fire and i measured every shoulder and seating depth on every primer

 

[Greyfox]

Yes that is correct i took 30 previously fired cases and resized the case, bumping the shoulder just enough to be able to chamber the case as a fired one wouldnt chamber

8 of these did not fire and i measured every shoulder and seating depth on every primer

There should have been no reason to move the shoulder at all with a once fired case. Sounds like you just repeated the same thing that caused the FTF in the first place. Are you trying to say that this once fired case would not go back into the chamber it was just fired from? Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[M-61]

Yes that is correct i took 30 previously fired cases and resized the case, bumping the shoulder just enough to be able to chamber the case as a fired one wouldnt chamber

8 of these did not fire and i measured every shoulder and seating depth on every primer

GREYFOX beat me to this and he is correct 100%

You are repeating a possible error. In an earlier response I made MY comment about my thoughts on shoulder bumping.
Now I will repeat what Greyfox said/asked modified to this:
Fire a round....extract it. Will it re-chamber?? Why are you bumping the shoulder if the case chambers? What is the reason? You are creating a situation in which I believe COULD be causing your FTF. If that bolt closes on a fired case there is no need to bump.
And makes me wonder also about your bullet seating depth, meaning jam.
Empty fired brass will OR will not chamber?
Fire a round....extract. Re-chamber that case (yes-no?) No bullet no sizing -nothing

 

[Tony1320]

There should have been no reason to move the shoulder at all with a once fired case. Sounds like you just repeated the same thing that caused the FTF in the first place. Are you trying to say that this once fired case would not go back into the chamber it was just fired from? Do you see where I'm coming from?

Yes the once fired case would not chamber i tried it before bumping the shoulder back .001. Even at that i had a few of those 30 rounds that chambered a bit difficult

I see where your coming from but if i cant close the bolt at all wouldnt that mean the shoulder is too far forward?

If every shoulder of those 30 rounds measured 1.608 to 1.609 why did 8 not go off and the other 22 were fine?

 

[Tony1320]

GREYFOX beat me to this and he is correct 100%

You are repeating a possible error. In an earlier response I made MY comment about my thoughts on shoulder bumping.
Now I will repeat what Greyfox said/asked modified to this:
Fire a round....extract it. Will it re-chamber?? Why are you bumping the shoulder if the case chambers? What is the reason? You are creating a situation in which I believe COULD be causing your FTF. If that bolt closes on a fired case there is no need to bump.
And makes me wonder also about your bullet seating depth, meaning jam.
Empty fired brass will OR will not chamber?
Fire a round....extract. Re-chamber that case (yes-no?) No bullet no sizing -nothing

The fired brass will not chamber

My bullets are seated .015 off the lands measured using wheeler method

 

[M-61]

I have the picture now.
And when this round DID fire did you experience hard bolt lift or harder than normal when extracting the fired case?

 

[Tony1320]

I have the picture now.
And when this round DID fire did you experience hard bolt lift or harder than normal when extracting the fired case?

No all fired rounds functioned normal far as i could tell. No hard bolt lifts

 

[hogpatrol]

Fired rounds should go back in the chamber, maybe with a little resistance. Have you checked the overall length of a fired case to see if it needs to be trimmed? Is the cause of the difficult rechambering a carbon ring?

 

[NorCalMikie]

Push the "FTF"primers out of the case carefully. Put one of the "FTF" primers on the cement floor and smack it with a hammer. (wear your shooting glasses) BANG?? If no BANG,check primer seating. ALSO, look at the primer compound to see if it's changed color. Looked burned (BLACK)? Maybe oil contaminated? You are chasing your tail!!

 

[kvd]

I'm not sure what you mean by the 450s may be out of the skillet and into the fire.

My experience with FTF was this way: I was shooting 6PPC with CCI BR-4 primers and occasionally I would have one not go off. I always blamed this on headspace and by being very careful not to bump the shoulder any more than 0.001 to 0.002 inch, it was not a major problem. Then I changed barrels to 6BRA and loaded up with CCI 450's to fire form Lapua 6mm BR Norma brass. Suddenly I had a non-functional rifle. Nothing I could do would make my setup fire the CCI 450's. I jammed bullets in cases neck sized with a 0.255 bushing, 30 thousandths into the lands - nothing. Crammed CCI 450 primers in so there was not a shadow of a doubt they were bottomed out - no luck. I pulled more 105 grain Bergers than I fired out of a box of 100!

Your situation seems all to familiar - I feel your pain brother. Alex Wheeler put a new FP spring in and the problem disappeared. All primers including CCI 450's fire with no problem now. As Alex put it, having to use only certain primers is lame, and I agree. One thing I should mention is that in testing other primers like Winchester SR and Federal GM205M's, I was blanking primers (at least you're not having that problem!) and Alex mentioned this is also a sign of a weak FP spring and in my case, a little excess H4895 for what I'm doing. Shooting a local fun match tomorrow and all should be well.

 

[Tony1320]

Fired rounds should go back in the chamber, maybe with a little resistance. Have you checked the overall length of a fired case to see if it needs to be trimmed? Is the cause of the difficult rechambering a carbon ring?

I felt resistance and applied a bit of force and it wouldn't close so i didnt want to force it

Rifle is clean no carbon ring

Cases measure 2.008 oal

 

[Tony1320]

Push the "FTF"primers out of the case carefully. Put one of the "FTF" primers on the cement floor and smack it with a hammer. (wear your shooting glasses) BANG?? If no BANG,check primer seating. ALSO, look at the primer compound to see if it's changed color. Looked burned (BLACK)? Maybe oil contaminated? You are chasing your tail!!

I have tried firing many times in another rifle with no luck probably same idea but i will try this