Salt bath anealing
- Thread starter WANTASHOOT
- Start date
The salt bath contains no water or atmosphere so eliminates the possibility of corrosion. It is safe for your brass. The question remains as to how long it takes to get the neck and shoulder of the case to 750F and how much it heats the rest of the case in that time.
The difference between a flame (propane flames burn at a known temperature) taking just 4 to 6 seconds to heat the neck and shoulder to the proper temperature (as checked with Tempilaq) and dipping your case into a salt bath to the shoulder that is only at 1000F is that it will take longer to heat the area and you have no way to check when it is hot enough. We know that we don't want to heat the case body or head beyond 350F so how long does it take to get the neck and shoulder to 750F?
The difference between a flame (propane flames burn at a known temperature) taking just 4 to 6 seconds to heat the neck and shoulder to the proper temperature (as checked with Tempilaq) and dipping your case into a salt bath to the shoulder that is only at 1000F is that it will take longer to heat the area and you have no way to check when it is hot enough. We know that we don't want to heat the case body or head beyond 350F so how long does it take to get the neck and shoulder to 750F?
The post I have been reading states 5 to 6 seconds to get his neck/shoulder annealed. He doesn't state the exact temp of the brass. I am out of town on a job site so it will be a while but I plan to do some testing on this process to determine the time and temp.
I'd want to add about $50 for a face shield, heat resistant apron and leather gauntlets.
With my Annealeez I don't need a full array of PPE and can do it in the air conditioned comfort of my home. It's easy to to set up, repeatable, semi-automated and the Tempelaq tells me the case neck is reaching the targeted temp.
None of these things are true with the salt bath method, are they? What's the benifit? Slightly cheaper?
None of these things are true with the salt bath method, are they? What's the benifit? Slightly cheaper?
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
The Tempelaq tells you when you have reached a particular temperature +/_??, but it doesn't tell you how far over that temp things got before cooling takes place.
Seems to me that if you are dipping in a pot of 750 degrees, you KNOW that the temperature won't exceed that. If you can determine that the neck has reached that temperature, it seems logical that you will have a better consistency of annealing. jd
If you guys want to see some REAL fireworks any of you familure with a process called cadwelding? It's a process for perminately attaching by welding bare uninsulated copper cable to other bare copper cables as well as copper clad steel grounding rods. To do this you use cadwell charges that contain a copper brass mix that melts when you ignite it fusing the parts to be connected together. I don't know the exact temp but IIRC it is at least 2000*F
First time I ever had a JW show me by preheating a cadwell mold I was astonished by the amount of moisture that escaped in the form of steam from it. This was in March and this mold like many many others was not properly cared for and stored in a warm dry location, more like the back of the company pick up completely exposed to the elements. I even saw a JW ignite a cadwell charge on a corner of a 6" thick concrete slab and the moisture trying to escape cracked off a good size chuck of the same corner.
The tool is clamp on mold devise made from carbon and yes carbon will absorbe moisture. It is especially bad in the winter and spring months and you MUST use a propane torch to heat up the mold to evaporate the moisture. If you don't and you ignite the cadwell charge any moisture in the mold will try to escape at tremendous velocity taking chunks of the mold with. Cadwelding is a task relegated to lower paid apprentices as it's not cost effective to allow as JW to do it.
Had a new "I know absolutely EVERYTHING" 1st year apprentice claim this hazard was an old wives tail perpetuated by us stupid JW's as it is IMPOSSIBLE for carbon as this genius claimed to absorb moisture. You can guess as to why he ended up in the ER getting (thankfully only a few) chunks of carbon and shards of brass and copper removed from him.
First time I ever had a JW show me by preheating a cadwell mold I was astonished by the amount of moisture that escaped in the form of steam from it. This was in March and this mold like many many others was not properly cared for and stored in a warm dry location, more like the back of the company pick up completely exposed to the elements. I even saw a JW ignite a cadwell charge on a corner of a 6" thick concrete slab and the moisture trying to escape cracked off a good size chuck of the same corner.
The tool is clamp on mold devise made from carbon and yes carbon will absorbe moisture. It is especially bad in the winter and spring months and you MUST use a propane torch to heat up the mold to evaporate the moisture. If you don't and you ignite the cadwell charge any moisture in the mold will try to escape at tremendous velocity taking chunks of the mold with. Cadwelding is a task relegated to lower paid apprentices as it's not cost effective to allow as JW to do it.
Had a new "I know absolutely EVERYTHING" 1st year apprentice claim this hazard was an old wives tail perpetuated by us stupid JW's as it is IMPOSSIBLE for carbon as this genius claimed to absorb moisture. You can guess as to why he ended up in the ER getting (thankfully only a few) chunks of carbon and shards of brass and copper removed from him.
I'm also still in my infancy about how to anneal brass, but using a torch is IMHO is a much if not dramatically so less accurate means of temperature control than salt or lead bath. With salt and lead you KNOW and can control the actual temp at which you are subjecting your brass to, not possible using a torch. Also again I'm guessing here, there is a much smaller learning curve on how to anneal correctly using lead or salt bath method. I have not seen a way you can as accurately determine then control the temp of a propane torch as can be done with using a lead or salt bath system. Again IMHO temp control with a torch is much more of an art form and basically guessing VS salt and lead where you know and can control the temp quite concisely VS a torch.
So guess the real question to ask is just how important is exact temperature control while annealing? I personally don't know, does anyone reading this know for certain? I suspect as with most similar things in the world of reloading the more consistent and accurate you are the more consistent and accurate your reloads will be.
If I'm to understand neck tension correctly, consistently repeatable neck tension plays a HUGE roll in producing consistently accurate reloads and I could be wrong but does it not stand to reason then annealing your brass necks using as consistent a temperature can not help to produce more accurate reloads? or once again in terms of annealing temperature control is close enough good enough?
But as I said Im still just learning about anneaing brass and have not yet actually done any.
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jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
Just for kicks, I just boiled a pan of water and tested my high temp meter to see how quickly it registers the measly 210 degrees that water boils at. The probe is two thin wires that are twisted together and melted into a little ball at the ends that is fairly representative of the thickness of cartridge brass.
It took less than three seconds to register the 200 odd degrees, and then of course went no higher. I seriously doubt that it would take more than 5 seconds to achieve 750 degrees if that were the temp of my solution.
With this salt bath method, I could even envision doing it on a stove top in a appropriate pan. An electric burner with infinite temp control could probably be adjusted to hold the right temperature.
By the way, I bought my thermometer off of eBay for under 30 bucks. -- and every bullet caster should have one. jd
It took less than three seconds to register the 200 odd degrees, and then of course went no higher. I seriously doubt that it would take more than 5 seconds to achieve 750 degrees if that were the temp of my solution.
With this salt bath method, I could even envision doing it on a stove top in a appropriate pan. An electric burner with infinite temp control could probably be adjusted to hold the right temperature.
By the way, I bought my thermometer off of eBay for under 30 bucks. -- and every bullet caster should have one. jd
Much has been discussed regarding salt fumes at too high of temperature, and the hazards of breathing those fumes however, I just want to point out that even at proper operating temperatures, non-toxic salt fumes WILL become airborne and disperse within the environment being used for annealing.
Meaning, don't do it anywhere you don't want severe rust and corrosion to be a problem, i.e. in a shop where there is machinery, your garage where tools and cars reside, etc. Do it outdoors and away from anything valuable.
Just saying....Been there, done that.
Meaning, don't do it anywhere you don't want severe rust and corrosion to be a problem, i.e. in a shop where there is machinery, your garage where tools and cars reside, etc. Do it outdoors and away from anything valuable.
Just saying....Been there, done that.
Jeese, I must really live on the edge. The risk of this process seems pretty negligible.
I sure like the idea of dipping my brass in a pool of liquid of a known and sustainable temperature as opposed to a flame of nearly un-regulatable, unknown, and unrepeatable temperature. jd
Just make sure the cases are dry , no primers. No water from a polishing tumbling or other sources of water.
AS it is the cheapest way for me to go right now, will give first the salt method a try and see how that works. I can obtain all the PPE I will need for free from work.
Lastly, if using a torch or torches, and besides not collapsing while seating bullets, does anyone reading this ACTUALLY know of a way to determine if you are annealing your brass correctly besides the accuracy of your groups?
Lastly, if using a torch or torches, and besides not collapsing while seating bullets, does anyone reading this ACTUALLY know of a way to determine if you are annealing your brass correctly besides the accuracy of your groups?
I suppose that the PPE requirements for salt bath annealing aren't really all that different than for casting lead bullets. In either case a drop of water under the molten lead or salt can cause an eruption of a very hot liquid. I cast lead balls for my cap and ball revolver every now and then and I've done it often enough that, while I am careful about water, I don't get myself decked out with a face shield and welding gloves. Last time I got a little blister when a tiny drop of lead splashed on my hand. Maybe I should wear leather gloves. I think the salt bath annealing is probably the same. Warm the brass in the oven to make sure it's dry. Work carefully and everything should be fine.
I took the plunge and bought the kit (less digital meter) from Ballistic Recreations. Had to clear customs inbound, so that took an extra day or two, but only about 6 working days to get to Texas. I got the Lee Precision Melter from Midway on sale. For the thermocouple to monitor temps, I needed a "k" type adapter for my Fluke multimeter. Fry's had them for $29.95 but they also had a complete multimeter with "K" input for $34.95 so I went with that and have a dedicated meter for temperature monitoring.
Set up was easy. Spoon some salt crystals into the pot and turn it on. 10 minutes later it's already melted and I start the process of setting the liquid level to reach just the neck/shoulder of my 6mmBR brass while using his baffle/case holder.
After the pot temperature has stabilized at the recommended 550 C (1022 F) I started cycling the brass through. It took about 5 seconds to get a nice color change to just past the shoulder. These are short cartridges, so the anneal can work it's way to the head fairly quickly. I used needle nose pliers to handle the hot brass.
I placed a bucket of water below the salt bath and dropped the brass into the water to quench and dissolve any residual salt. I went through 50 pcs of de-capped and sized, but not cleaned brass in about 10 minutes. The result was a nice even blueish discoloration to just past the shoulder/case wall junction. I then SS pin tumbled them clean which removed all discoloration from the annealing process. I made an entry into the brass log.
I returned to check on the pot about an hour or so after shut down, and the salt was hardened and cool enough to handle. I tapped the inverted pot against the work bench and the salt "puck" dropped out, and was placed back in the jar the salt came in. I wiped the pot insides with a damp paper towel and dried. And that was it!
This is easy, reliable, and repeatable and with the temp meter I can monitor the anneal temp precisely. I prefer that to the torch method I had been using. You do have to top up the pot after use, so plan on getting some extra salt. It seemed that no matter what I tried, there was always a tiny drop of hot salt sticking inside the neck as I removed it from the pot, frequently dropping into the water just before I dropped the brass. The two jars of salt I purchased will probably last several years if I anneal after each cycle.
As always, YMMV.
Set up was easy. Spoon some salt crystals into the pot and turn it on. 10 minutes later it's already melted and I start the process of setting the liquid level to reach just the neck/shoulder of my 6mmBR brass while using his baffle/case holder.
After the pot temperature has stabilized at the recommended 550 C (1022 F) I started cycling the brass through. It took about 5 seconds to get a nice color change to just past the shoulder. These are short cartridges, so the anneal can work it's way to the head fairly quickly. I used needle nose pliers to handle the hot brass.
I placed a bucket of water below the salt bath and dropped the brass into the water to quench and dissolve any residual salt. I went through 50 pcs of de-capped and sized, but not cleaned brass in about 10 minutes. The result was a nice even blueish discoloration to just past the shoulder/case wall junction. I then SS pin tumbled them clean which removed all discoloration from the annealing process. I made an entry into the brass log.
I returned to check on the pot about an hour or so after shut down, and the salt was hardened and cool enough to handle. I tapped the inverted pot against the work bench and the salt "puck" dropped out, and was placed back in the jar the salt came in. I wiped the pot insides with a damp paper towel and dried. And that was it!
This is easy, reliable, and repeatable and with the temp meter I can monitor the anneal temp precisely. I prefer that to the torch method I had been using. You do have to top up the pot after use, so plan on getting some extra salt. It seemed that no matter what I tried, there was always a tiny drop of hot salt sticking inside the neck as I removed it from the pot, frequently dropping into the water just before I dropped the brass. The two jars of salt I purchased will probably last several years if I anneal after each cycle.
As always, YMMV.
If your bath, be it lead or salt, is at 750 degrees you will never get the brass to that temperature without overheating the rest of the case. You might get the brass to 650 or 700F but because the brass radiates and transfers heat you will never get it to the same temperature as the bath unless you immerse the brass in the bath which would heat the entire case making the body too soft to use. The bath must be hotter than the required temperature of the annealing process.
As far as exact temperatures are concerned you want the neck and shoulder of the brass to get to at least 725F and no hotter than 850F. There is a lot of lee way in the temperatures themselves. As long as your heat source has a fixed temperature you can find the amount of time it takes to transfer that much heat to the cartridge.
As far as exact temperatures are concerned you want the neck and shoulder of the brass to get to at least 725F and no hotter than 850F. There is a lot of lee way in the temperatures themselves. As long as your heat source has a fixed temperature you can find the amount of time it takes to transfer that much heat to the cartridge.
Bully
Silver $$ Contributor
I ordered my salts and such from Ballistic Recreations last week. Hoping they show up shortly.
I did a bit of research and am fairly certain that this method will work for me and my reloading practices. I will report back when I know a bit more.
I posted a WTB on a local gun board and a buddy has the pot and he's gonna give it to me. Just need to grab a thermometer and I'll be ready to roll.
I did a bit of research and am fairly certain that this method will work for me and my reloading practices. I will report back when I know a bit more.
I posted a WTB on a local gun board and a buddy has the pot and he's gonna give it to me. Just need to grab a thermometer and I'll be ready to roll.
It's funny. 6 or 7 years ago if you mentioned using molten lead to anneal your cases your post got deleted and you got a nasty gram PM from the admin.....
I also agree with Boyd. A good hat, face shield, full welding leathers, welding gloves, and leather shoes [ boots preferably ] is what a wise man wears when dealing with liquids heated up to 650+ degrees.
I also agree with Boyd. A good hat, face shield, full welding leathers, welding gloves, and leather shoes [ boots preferably ] is what a wise man wears when dealing with liquids heated up to 650+ degrees.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
I see no reason it wouldn't work. Very dangerous if there is any water in a case. Probably have to conform to EPA strict disposal cost. Don't know about vapor hazards. The HT dept. where I used to work had salt pots. Many different salts and melting temps. The only negative may be washing the salt off of the cases. I use a torch for the small number of cases I do a year.
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