New 155gr 6.5mm Berger on the horizon?

[Patch700]

You want to talk about "Game changing" , it started when we ditched calibers that required a new pipe be spun on before the season was over.. 6.5x300..6.5x284.. By utilizing a bullet with more surface area you aren't going to get more barrel life... In all probability it'll be the other way around.

Speaking from a competition standpoint of course... For a paper puncher etc it may have some validity.

 

[Grimstod]

You want to talk about "Game changing" , it started when we ditched calibers that required a new pipe be spun on before the season was over.. 6.5x300..6.5x284.. By utilizing a bullet with more surface area you aren't going to get more barrel life... In all probability it'll be the other way around.

Speaking from a competition standpoint of course... For a paper puncher etc it may have some validity.

Very good point Patch700

 

[Grimstod]

Which caliber, 140gr bullet, and elevation are you using to get those numbers?

The speed of sound is 1116 fps. With my 6.5 Rem Mag pushing the 140gr Berger Hunting VLD at 3200 fps in a 26" barrel, I go subsonic at 1650 yards when calculated at sea level (0 ft). If I calculate it at the 4000 ft elevation where I practice long range shooting, I don't go sub sonic until 1950 yards. Where I hunt up in the 5500-7500 ft elevation range, it goes even further.

I bet I could push that 155gr bullet up around 3050-3100 fps if my 1 in 8" twist would stabilize it because even at 3200 fps with the 140, I'm still not showing any signs of max pressure.

Everything was sea level and 59 degrees F. As for the caliber since we are talking about a 6.5mm bullet I would assume that to be .264cal. Speed are what you can expect, 2850 for the 155 and 3050 for the 140s.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Everything was sea level and 59 degrees F. As for the caliber since we are talking about a 6.5mm bullet I would assume that to be .264cal. Speed are what you can expect, 2850 for the 155 and 3050 for the 140s.

With those calculations using the 140gr Hunting VLD, you'd be subsonic just after 1500 yards.

 

[284winner]

I come up with 1125 fps @ 1700 yards with the 140 vld at 3000 fps muzzle. 1000' elevation, 59°. Considering using the G1 BC of .618.( Berger has it at .600 but my experience for me shows closer to .615-.620 Even at .600 it's 1100 fps at 1700 yards).
1133 fps @1800 yards with the 155 at 2800 fps muzzle. Same elevation, temp with a G1 of .717 ( which is very assumptious). If I use the .675 G1 for the 155, the numbers are 1130 fps at 1700 yards. Bringing it right about the same as the 140 vld. Again this bullet will need to be driven by a bigger cartridge to make much gain over the 140 unless the BC IS what was mentioned earlier by someone at .717 as an average.

 

[bigngreen]

I agree with Tom, we haven't seen over a 100 fps loose going from a 140 Berger to a 160 Matrix and they have more bearing surface, the 155 Berger is not adding that much bearings surface in comparison.
For my needs which are killing wolves to elk, I'll take every inch of windage and I'll take every grain of bullet weight, if you get of the ballistic calculators and actually put this class bullet in game you'll see where the advantage is!!

 

[284winner]

I don't know that I would assume a 200 fps loss vs a 140. Here is my SECOND hand experience with the 7mm, and 180 to 195 changeover. My buddy Leo lost zero fps when changing from 180 to 195 for his accuracy load in 7-300 wsm heavy hunting gun (28" barrel). My buddy Cody lost maybe 20 fps in his sporter hunting rig, same chamber but 26" barrel. I believe both ended up switching to a slower powder, but in the end lost next to nothing for speed where the best accuracy was.

Tom

Interesting. I was being conservative. I do believe that with a 6.5-284 hitting 2900 fps is possible making a 100 fps difference.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I agree with Tom, we haven't seen over a 100 fps loose going from a 140 Berger to a 160 Matrix and they have more bearing surface, the 155 Berger is not adding that much bearings surface in comparison.
For my needs which are killing wolves to elk, I'll take every inch of windage and I'll take every grain of bullet weight, if you get of the ballistic calculators and actually put this class bullet in game you'll see where the advantage is!!

Of course terminal performance on game is a whole 'nother ball of wax that cannot be predicted until the bullet gets adequate time in the field.

Tom knows people that have used the Berger 7mm 195 gr on game extensively and it performed very poorly in his opinion compared to its 168gr and 180gr counterparts. Tom is an expeienced big game hunter in Montana and I trust his assessment of the 195gr performance. Hopefully the 6.5mm 155gr does not do the same.

 

[bigngreen]

Yep terminal performance will be the deciding factor to me, don't know how the 195 fits I'm but some guys have had issues and I know of the ones your referring to but I also know guys with 20+ elk with them with out a single issue, they've shown a lot of love to some guy not so much for others, that why the most relevant terminal results to me are the ones I have my hands in! I shoot the 195 in my 28 but I ended up shooting both my elk inside 500 yard so I threw a 177 Hammer on them instead cause there my point blank bullet till I get more personal data on the 195.
Back to the 6.5's, when Matrix started stretching out to 160 gr we saw some interesting terminal changes so the bullets had to be tweaked from the 142, how open the tip is vs how far up the nose the lead comes make a huge difference in these when put on game. Part of the reason the 215 is so rediculous awesome is the very open cavity in the nose compared to the 210 but I'd has the target jacket which I think makes the bullet function as excellent as it does.

 

[JBT47]

Yep terminal performance will be the deciding factor to me, don't know how the 195 fits I'm but some guys have had issues and I know of the ones your referring to but I also know guys with 20+ elk with them with out a single issue, they've shown a lot of love to some guy not so much for others, that why the most relevant terminal results to me are the ones I have my hands in! I shoot the 195 in my 28 but I ended up shooting both my elk inside 500 yard so I threw a 177 Hammer on them instead cause there my point blank bullet till I get more personal data on the 195.
Back to the 6.5's, when Matrix started stretching out to 160 gr we saw some interesting terminal changes so the bullets had to be tweaked from the 142, how open the tip is vs how far up the nose the lead comes make a huge difference in these when put on game. Part of the reason the 215 is so rediculous awesome is the very open cavity in the nose compared to the 210 but I'd has the target jacket which I think makes the bullet function as excellent as it does.

Agree on the 215 Hybrid Target.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Yep terminal performance will be the deciding factor to me, don't know how the 195 fits I'm but some guys have had issues and I know of the ones your referring to but I also know guys with 20+ elk with them with out a single issue, they've shown a lot of love to some guy not so much for others, that why the most relevant terminal results to me are the ones I have my hands in! I shoot the 195 in my 28 but I ended up shooting both my elk inside 500 yard so I threw a 177 Hammer on them instead cause there my point blank bullet till I get more personal data on the 195.
Back to the 6.5's, when Matrix started stretching out to 160 gr we saw some interesting terminal changes so the bullets had to be tweaked from the 142, how open the tip is vs how far up the nose the lead comes make a huge difference in these when put on game. Part of the reason the 215 is so rediculous awesome is the very open cavity in the nose compared to the 210 but I'd has the target jacket which I think makes the bullet function as excellent as it does.

Yeah i mostly use the 140gr Hunting VLD, but I've killed a handful of animals using the 140gr Target VLD. Never had any issue with the heavier jacket. All DRT. Works great. I use the Hunting VLD because for some reason it seems to be just a little more accurate in my rifle.

 

[fredo]

I also shoot the 215Hybrid in my .30-338Norma Improved & like very much what I've seen. The 215 doesn't quite have the BC of some of the heavier ~230s, but the launch speed that wildcat can achieve with the 215s makes them ballistically superior within the distance I'd ever care to take a game animal...

So, that was another easy decision! Same as .224, .243, .264 and .284 calibers, the not-so-heaviest bullet, launched at higher MV wins out for most practical hunting applications.

 

[bigngreen]

I switch to the 230 at about 3100fps, over that and the 215's start having issues. I shoot mostly elk and running a 215 or 210 super fast to out run a 230 can end in a mess, I've been apart of several of those and spent some days trying to get a bull killed.

 

[Archer79]

I would expect a higher bc the 147 eldms are 697...I would love to get my hands on some of the 155s though

 

[fredo]

I switch to the 230 at about 3100fps, over that and the 215's start having issues. I shoot mostly elk and running a 215 or 210 super fast to out run a 230 can end in a mess, I've been apart of several of those and spent some days trying to get a bull killed.

I switch to the 230 at about 3100fps, over that and the 215's start having issues. I shoot mostly elk and running a 215 or 210 super fast to out run a 230 can end in a mess, I've been apart of several of those and spent some days trying to get a bull killed.

That's interesting. Could you explain what the "issues" are with the 215 Hybrids? Accuracy, terminal, and at what MV are you seeing this? They're both 'Hybrid' designs, so just wondering what makes one bullet perform better on game? That's the eternal question, isn't it?

I got 215s well over 3200 with Retumbo during testing. But, eased back to 3155, to enjoy an un-finicky & mild pressured load. Barrel is a 1:10 Bartlein @ 28", for comparison's sake...

What cartridge/barrel length are you runnin' to get a 230 to 3100? 30-338Lapua? My wildcat could likely yield that MV with R33, so how will switching to the 230 be a benefit? Almost out of my batch of 215s, so I'm all for trying the 230s, given a compelling argument...

Would welcome your opinion!

 

[KMG]

I was thinking a lot shorter then a 7SAUM. Maybe push the shoulder back 0.220in

Which caliber, 140gr bullet, and elevation are you using to get those numbers?

The speed of sound is 1116 fps. With my 6.5 Rem Mag pushing the 140gr Berger Hunting VLD at 3200 fps in a 26" barrel, I go subsonic at 1650 yards when calculated at sea level (0 ft). If I calculate it at the 4000 ft elevation where I practice long range shooting, I don't go sub sonic until 1950 yards. Where I hunt up in the 5500-7500 ft elevation range, it goes even further.

I bet I could push that 155gr bullet up around 3050-3100 fps if my 1 in 8" twist would stabilize it because even at 3200 fps with the 140, I'm still not showing any signs of max pressure.

Which caliber, 140gr bullet, and elevation are you using to get those numbers?

The speed of sound is 1116 fps. With my 6.5 Rem Mag pushing the 140gr Berger Hunting VLD at 3200 fps in a 26" barrel, I go subsonic at 1650 yards when calculated at sea level (0 ft). If I calculate it at the 4000 ft elevation where I practice long range shooting, I don't go sub sonic until 1950 yards. Where I hunt up in the 5500-7500 ft elevation range, it goes even further.

I bet I could push that 155gr bullet up around 3050-3100 fps if my 1 in 8" twist would stabilize it because even at 3200 fps with the 140, I'm still not showing any signs of max pressure.

I'm running a 30.5" 1:8 tw barrel & I've run the 160 Matrix up to 3182' with a 67gr load of RL33. I called it max for my SS as the powder was aleady half way up the neck using a short drop tube. I run the 160's at 3080' with 64.5grs of 33 & it's a mild load. So I would say that a 1:8 should stabilize the 155's just fine. To say the least I'm not overly excited about Berger's new 6.5 offering. More of the same if you ask me. I would be interested in a true 6.5 heavyweight 170 or larger would trip my trigger. Oh, and yes the 160's are mag fed thru aics mags with no issues. My COAL is 2.940".
Kevin

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I would expect a higher bc the 147 eldms are 697...I would love to get my hands on some of the 155s though

Yeah but I would trust Berger's claimed BC over Hornady. Berger started with really high BC claims years ago when they were beginning to gain a following. Fast forward to today and you'll find that they put in a lot of time and effort to truly test the BCs of their bullets so they can give the customer factual data that will allow them to calculate their trajectory more accurately. Where they found that their BC claims were a little high, they changed the data to what the testing revealed to be true.

For example, years ago before Berger had separate target and hunting bullets or anyone used a G7 BC, they claimed the 140gr VLD had a G1 BC of .627. You will now find that they claim the same bullet, the '140gr Hunting VLD' has a G1 BC of .600. From my extensive testing with that bullet since they first hit the market and still using them today, I find that the G1 .600 BC claim is more accurate than the original .627 BC claim.

It's exciting to say a new bullet has an ultra high BC, but often they are over estimated by other manufacturers for marketing purposes. Nosler is a known perpetrator of this marketing tactic with their outrageous BC claims on the LRAB. Hornady may not be quite as bad as Nosler, but I'd bet their claims of a G1 .697 on the 147gr ELD are a little inflated.

 

[Archer79]

Yeah but I would trust Berger's claimed BC over Hornady. Berger started with really high BC claims years ago when they were beginning to gain a following. Fast forward to today and you'll find that they put in a lot of time and effort to truly test the BCs of their bullets so they can give the customer factual data that will allow them to calculate their trajectory more accurately. Where they found that their BC claims were a little high, they changed the data to what the testing revealed to be true.

For example, years ago before Berger had separate target and hunting bullets or anyone used a G7 BC, they claimed the 140gr VLD had a G1 BC of .627. You will now find that they claim the same bullet, the '140gr Hunting VLD' has a G1 BC of .600. From my extensive testing with that bullet since they first hit the market and still using them today, I find that the G1 .600 BC claim is more accurate than the original .627 BC claim.

It's exciting to say a new bullet has an ultra high BC, but often they are over estimated by other manufacturers for marketing purposes. Nosler is a known perpetrator of this marketing tactic with their outrageous BC claims on the LRAB. Hornady may not be quite as bad as Nosler, but I'd bet their claims of a G1 .697 on the 147gr ELD are a little inflated.

Didn't hornady just put some money into a Doppler system to make sure their bc's were accurate...in my limited experience everything seems to jive when punched into a ballistics calculator

 

[Grimstod]

Didn't hornady just put some money into a Doppler system to make sure their bc's were accurate...in my limited experience everything seems to jive when punched into a ballistics calculator

Brian Litz test show that the doper radars are not to accurate. An error by the margin mentioned above is possible due to this.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

How much error did he find in dopler? I assume this also effects the labradar.