Still cant figure out my headspace.....FL sizing Die Set-up

[ireload2]

You have just read another thrilling report from Fake News Guffey.

 

[dmoran]

Sure is a lot of sniping go'n on here. Civil sniping, but sniping nonetheless. You'd almost think this site should be called Snipers Hide. Oops, that's already taken..

When someone comes on a reloading forum and continuously refers to reloaders as dumb/stupid, there opening themselves up to "sniping". They may very well be the only one.....

 

[fguffey]

That's a nice story, but nothing you have said is beneficial to the OP.

Thank you. Do you have anything to offer? I assumed there was a difference between a rifle that was blue printed and a rifle that was not blue printed, for me? Not a problem; I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage, go, no or beyond,? For the 30/06 length chamber the three gages cover 3 length out of a possibility of 14 lengths.

A reloader should have a good understanding of threads, the press has threads and the die has threads. A reloader can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head, a reloader can not move the shoulder on the case back. I understand it sounds cool to say "I bump", again, I say I can not move the shoulder back and why; no one has offered to explain how they bump the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

 

[Someoldguy]

Thank you. Do you have anything to offer? I assumed there was a difference between a rifle that was blue printed and a rifle that was not blue printed, for me? Not a problem; I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage, go, no or beyond,? For the 30/06 length chamber the three gages cover 3 length out of a possibility of 14 lengths.

A reloader should have a good understanding of threads, the press has threads and the die has threads. A reloader can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head, a reloader can not move the shoulder on the case back. I understand it sounds cool to say "I bump", again, I say I can not move the shoulder back and why; no one has offered to explain how they bump the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

This thread can continue for another 5 pages, but the fact is you, me nor anyone else without access to the OPs firearm can accurately determine the chamber length.
Claims about what anyone can or can not do are irrelvent to the original context and question of the thread.

 

[dmoran]

... no one has offered to explain how they bump the shoulder back.

@fguffey -
Once again will attempt to help you grasp "shoulder bump" with actual pictures of a case and its measurements both before & after sizing. Below is a picture of the spent case sitting in a shell holder on a RCBS press, fallowed by the before & after measurements and of a "shoulder bump gauge" :

Note to picture above: a shoulder bump / headspace gauge, made from a barrel stub with a neck and shoulder chambered into it, from the same chamber reamer used to chamber the barrel that the spent brass was fired in.
Also notice in the top picture, a "surface ground shell holder" being used (.115" deck height).

As you can see by the before & after measurements, the shoulder location was a reduction in length measurement, as were all the diameter measurements. Only exception was the over-all case length, which grew 0.001" in the sizing operation from brass flow. None of the measurements stayed the same, showing that the case was completely full re-sized and all measured aspects including the shoulders location was moved.
Hence, 0.003" of shoulder bump <> 0.003" of case headspace .....

"Easy peasy"
Donovan

 

[ttfreestyle]

@fguffey -
Once again will attempt to help you grasp "shoulder bump" with actual pictures of a case and its measurements both before & after sizing. Below is a picture of the spent case sitting in a shell holder on a RCBS press, fallowed by the before & after measurements and of a "shoulder bump gauge" :

Note to picture above: a "shoulder bump gauge" , from a barrel stub with a neck and shoulder chambered into it, from the same chamber reamer used to chamber the barrel that the spent brass was fired in.

As you can see by the before & after measurements, the shoulder location was a reduction in measurement, as were all the measurements except the over-all case length, which grew 0.001" in the sizing operation from brass flow. None of the measurements stayed the same, showing that the case was completely full re-sized and all measured aspects including the shoulders location was moved. Hence a 0.003" bumped shoulder.... !.!.!

"Easy peasy"
Donovan

Wow a real explanation with real pictures... now that's how it's done!

 

[dmoran]

Wow a real explanation with real pictures... now that's how it's done!

That is a repeat explanation of mine to @fguffey......
It has been explained to @fguffey many times, by many, and on multiple forum boards.
Problem is he is just to goofy to comprehend what is common knowledge to reloaders.

All the same, Thanks
Donovan

 

[MoneyWaster]

@fguffey -
Once again will attempt to help you grasp "shoulder bump" with actual pictures of a case and its measurements both before & after sizing. Below is a picture of the spent case sitting in a shell holder on a RCBS press, fallowed by the before & after measurements and of a "shoulder bump gauge" :

Note to picture above: a "shoulder bump gauge" , from a barrel stub with a neck and shoulder chambered into it, from the same chamber reamer used to chamber the barrel that the spent brass was fired in.

As you can see by the before & after measurements, the shoulder location was a reduction in measurement, as were all the measurements except the over-all case length, which grew 0.001" in the sizing operation from brass flow. None of the measurements stayed the same, showing that the case was completely full re-sized and all measured aspects including the shoulders location was moved. Hence, 0.003" of shoulder bump...

"Easy peasy"
Donovan

As the OP I will say "thank you" for this. It has answered many questions for me.

 

[ireload2]

@guffey
You are too funny. People have been moving shoulders around for more than 140 years, that is way before you first said it was not possible..... There is a huge probability that the unable and infallabull Fake News Guffey is wrong.

A reloader should have at least a minimum understanding of those who are trying to provide help with their posts and those who are mere camouflaged trolls whose intent is disruption of the forum. Only a troll could have an ego so large that he can think he is the only one with a brain.

Do you really want an answer to your preposterous question "How do I bump a shoulder back"?
Well I bump a lot of shoulders back including the .303 British when I form them to make the 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher brass. I use a number of intermediate shorter dies for rounds with larger diameter bodies to size the neck down and push the shoulder way back at the same time. I set the shoulder position with a trim die. Then I neck size it to hold a bullet using a 6.5X.250 Savage FL die. This permits fire forming with the case shoulder tight against the chamber shoulder. Now you have had it explained. You can no longer claim that no one has explained how to bump a shoulder back. I will remind you of this if you ever repeat the line that no one ever offered to explain how to set the shoulder back.

I can also use a set of .33 Win form dies to perform a Houdini like trick of creating shoulders that never were out of thin air. Push a .45-70 case into a .33 Win form die set and it comes out like magic - with a shoulder. If I can make a shoulder where there was none then moving an existing shoulder around is child's play for everyone here except maybe Guffey.

BTW what comes out of a fire hose? Do fire trucks burn?
Give the English language a break. It plays enough games without your help.

Thank you. Do you have anything to offer? I assumed there was a difference between a rifle that was blue printed and a rifle that was not blue printed, for me? Not a problem; I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage, go, no or beyond,? For the 30/06 length chamber the three gages cover 3 length out of a possibility of 14 lengths.

A reloader should have a good understanding of threads, the press has threads and the die has threads. A reloader can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head, a reloader can not move the shoulder on the case back. I understand it sounds cool to say "I bump", again, I say I can not move the shoulder back and why; no one has offered to explain how they bump the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

 

[spife7980]

A reloader can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head, a reloader can not move the shoulder on the case back.

What in the ever loving hell are you talking about? You didnt even make it out of once sentence without doubling back on yourself.

How have we not banned this troll yet?

 

[jerseyjoe]

....... For the 30/06 length chamber the three gages cover 3 length out of a possibility of 14 lengths.

F. Guffey

My gauges measure thousandths of an inch, not lengths

Sound familiar Mr. Guffey?

dmoran's post nailed it as far as describing what is going on when sizing and bumping shoulders.

Well done!

 

[vano]

Finally on the fifth page!

 

[hoz53]

@guffey
You are too funny. People have been moving shoulders around for more than 140 years, that is way before you first said it was not possible..... There is a huge probability that the unable and infallabull Fake News Guffey is wrong.

A reloader should have at least a minimum understanding of those who are trying to provide help with their posts and those who are mere camouflaged trolls whose intent is disruption of the forum. Only a troll could have an ego so large that he can think he is the only one with a brain.

Do you really want an answer to your preposterous question "How do I bump a shoulder back"?
Well I bump a lot of shoulders back including the .303 British when I form them to make the 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher brass. I use a number of intermediate shorter dies for rounds with larger diameter bodies to size the neck down and push the shoulder way back at the same time. I set the shoulder position with a trim die. Then I neck size it to hold a bullet using a 6.5X.250 Savage FL die. This permits fire forming with the case shoulder tight against the chamber shoulder. Now you have had it explained. You can no longer claim that no one has explained how to bump a shoulder back. I will remind you of this if you ever repeat the line that no one ever offered to explain how to set the shoulder back.

I can also use a set of .33 Win form dies to perform a Houdini like trick of creating shoulders that never were out of thin air. Push a .45-70 case into a .33 Win form die set and it comes out like magic - with a shoulder. If I can make a shoulder where there was none then moving an existing shoulder around is child's play for everyone here except maybe Guffey.

BTW what comes out of a fire hose? Do fire trucks burn?
Give the English language a break. It plays enough games without your help.

i quit reading Guffey Posts long ago let alone spending one second of my time replying to them. The only thing i cant figure out about this thread is why everyone else doesnt do the same.

 

[ttfreestyle]

My gauges measure thousandths of an inch, not lengths

Sound familiar Mr. Guffey?

That's too funny right there^^^^^^^^^

 

[Webster]

I have a blueprinted Remington 700 action with a M24 Bartlein barrel chambered in 223. I had it rechambered after shooting about 500 rounds through it because I was experiencing case/head separation on brass after about 3 reloads. My measurements on fired brass indicated excessive headspace/an excessively deep chamber. I took it back to the gunsmith who originally chambered it, and he cut a new chamber (although he said it was in range).

After getting the gun back I proceeded to workup a ladder firing 75 gn Hornady Match BTHPs over loads of Varget. I used new/unfired Lapua brass for this. I determined that 23.5 gn of Varget produced the best accuracy with an average muzzle velocity of 2845 fps out of a 26" barrel. There were no pressure signs.

Measuring the case length from the base to shoulder (using a Hornady comparator) on the once fired brass I found a range of lengths. I started a thread here to discuss this and was informed that many of the cases may not have been fully expanded/stretched upon firing because of some of the light loads in the ladder. It was suggested that I neck size only for the next reloads and see what measurements I get after the second firing. Taking that advice I loaded up 50 neck sized cases to find what jump the bullet liked, and I headed to the range.

When I fired the neck sized cases I immediately found some difficulty closing the bolt on a few cases, and extraction on several cases was very difficult. I literally had to hit the bolt rearward with a strike from the palm of my hand to get the cases out. The primers on these cases looked fine (still rounded at the edge) and there was no evidence of extractor marks. Looking at some of the cases I can see what appears to be a fine line in about the same location where I experienced case/head separation previously with the old chamber. Again, this is on the second reload of new Lapua brass that was neck sized only.

Measuring case length from the base to the shoulder on 10 of the twice fired cases I get an average length of 1.560", with a maximum length measurement of 1.565"

Measuring case length from the base to the shoulder on 10 of the once fired neck sized cases I get an average of 1.551" with a maximum length measurement of 1.553".

Based on those measurements I increased the average base to shoulder measurement by 0.009" with the second firing of neck sized cases. This seems excessive to me.

I want to full-length size the 50 remaining neck sized cases to avoid the extraction issues that I experienced. However, I have no idea what my target base to shoulder target length should be based on the variance between the once fired and twice fired cases. Should I set up my FL die to bump the shoulder on the maximum length case 0.001", or should I target bumping the average length by 0.001"?

Should I be concerned about the difference in measurements between the once fired and twice fired cases? The appearance of the faint line near the case web has me worried.

Any opinions and guidance here is appreciated. For what its worth, the dies are Redding and the press is a Forester Co-Ax. Powder charges are thrown with an A&D scale accurate to 0.02 gn.

 

[savagedasher]

I can say I have learned more here then I did in 70 + years of reloading .
lol. Larry

 

[Lone Hunter]

i quit reading Guffey Posts long ago let alone spending one second of my time replying to them. The only thing i cant figure out about this thread is why everyone else doesnt do the same.

Same here. I don't see his B/S anymore with the IGNORE button. I like it that way. There are some guys that know what they are doing and can back it up and, (other)singular, people that try to create controversy. It's kinda like a kid that has no friends. The only way he can get attention is to create controversy. Hince the ignore button. Nice pics and explanation by the way.

 

[hoz53]

Same here. I don't see his B/S anymore with the IGNORE button. I like it that way. There are some guys that know what they are doing and can back it up and, (other)singular, people that try to create controversy. It's kinda like a kid that has no friends. The only way he can get attention is to create controversy. Hince the ignore button. Nice pics and explanation by the way.

I just miss all of Big Eds pictures I have thought about the ignore button for sure but i like to see who is posting on the thread even if i dont read it. I usually dont read the replies to Guffey either cause i know i usually wont get anything out of them but sometimes there is some good info in them.

 

[boltfluter]

Thank god for the ignore button. Makes this forum much more pleasant. I am surprised fguffey is still hanging around.

Paul

 

[hoz53]

I can say I have learned more here then I did in 70 + years of reloading .
lol. Larry

I hope it wasnt all from Guffey Larry