Bushing or non-bushing FL die

[dickn52]

Bushing or non bushing re-sizer for .223 reloading. I'm leaning towards a Whidden bushing die set up, but thought I'd ask the forum for advice first. Right now I'm doing FL standard good old re-sizing. Is there anything to gain in switching to a bushing die?

 

[jerseyjoe]

Is this for a gas gun or a bolt gun?

My preference is a Redding FL sizer with the carbide expander for ARs (no bushing).

No experience with .223 in bolt gun.

 

[spife7980]

Do you know the specs of your chamber and brass? I would get that first and see how much extra working the brass will have with a normal full length die. I prefer non bushing dies just for ease of simplicity and not having to worry about bushings but that is dependent on them being a good fit for your personal particulars. They could be a good or bad idea depending.

 

[mikecr]

I would say go with a Redding or Whidden 'FL bushing' die because they're not actually FL dies at all(they're body-bushing dies).
True FL dies, do that, including FL sizing of necks, which I would never ever do.

If you really want FL sizing of necks, from a bushing die, you would seek something Like that offered by Warner Tool Co.
http://www.6mmbr.com/warnerdie.html
This type uses a bushing for the neck and shoulder area of cases.
I had a Tubb die like this for 6XC. Expensive & hated it.

 

[Shynloco]

If its a Bolt Gun and you want to play with Neck Tension, buy the Whidden. If its an AR, I'd stick with the ordinary FL Die. Gas Guns don't respect the difference, even the Precision builds (i.e JP Precision, AERO, etc).

Alex

 

[dickn52]

Thanks for all the comments and advice. I called and placed an order with John Whidden today. Hopefully this will give me just the edge to make the difference.

 

[jpmimproved]

Did you go for the bushing or non bushing?

 

[dickn52]

Did you go for the bushing or non bushing?

Sorry. Bushing after talking to them on the phone. I already owned their non bushing FL die. Just curious as I have never given a bushing die a thought until last week. I'm shooting a .223 at 100 yards in sub .50 groups. BUT I feel there is some runout and concentricity issues according to my testers. SO, if this will help eliminate some of those issues I'll push out to the 300-600 yard range with a bit more confidence.

 

[SheepDog]

I am not convinced that a die with a floating bushing can make better brass than one that is cut from a solid piece all at the same time. After all the bushing must have play to work. How can that relate to straighter brass?

 

[ebb]

I doesn't it relates to a tighter or looser neck.

 

[SheepDog]

Sorry. Bushing after talking to them on the phone. I already owned their non bushing FL die. Just curious as I have never given a bushing die a thought until last week. I'm shooting a .223 at 100 yards in sub .50 groups. BUT I feel there is some runout and concentricity issues according to my testers. SO, if this will help eliminate some of those issues I'll push out to the 300-600 yard range with a bit more confidence.

This is why I asked how a bushing die would make more accurate brass.

 

[Endyo]

I think the idea is that neck tension effects accuracy. The bushing is free floated, but should align as the case enters the bushing.

I'm not sure that there is enough play lateral play in the die to measurably effect concentricity at the neck.

As long as the loaded cartridges TIIR remains within an acceptable range you can use the bushings to help control "neck tension" or bullet grip.


The gain from tuning neck tension > The 'loss' of consistent brass using a bushing die.

Not more accurate brass but more accurate ammo.

 

[dickn52]

This is why I asked how a bushing die would make more accurate brass.

Not even sure it will help, but I'm at the limit with what I have and I make some darn nice bullets when I take my time.

 

[Endyo]

BUT I feel there is some runout and concentricity issues according to my testers. SO, if this will help eliminate some of those issues I'll push out to the 300-600 yard range with a bit more confidence.

I think the OP misspoke when he inferred a bushing die would reduce r/o and concentricity issues. Although it is feasible as a full length die could be undersizing the neck (sizing the neck too much) causing runout whereas a bushing die could cure that condition.

 

[ronemus]

Unless you have a small neck ID in your chamber (<0.004" clearance), a bushing die is likely to induce runout unless you size in multiple steps of 0.003" or less. A properly made FL die is by its nature concentric, but the bushing in a FL bushing die floats and thus can introduce runout in the sized neck. If you want low runout and controlled neck diameter, you are better off with a set of custom FL dies with appropriate neck diameters.

 

[SheepDog]

Unless you have a small neck ID in your chamber (<0.004" clearance), a bushing die is likely to induce runout unless you size in multiple steps of 0.003" or less. A properly made FL die is by its nature concentric, but the bushing in a FL bushing die floats and thus can introduce runout in the sized neck. If you want low runout and controlled neck diameter, you are better off with a set of custom FL dies with appropriate neck diameters.

I believe I concur.
A bushing floats vertically and has clearance around the outside diameter in the die. Most bushings are less than concentric from the ID to the OD of the bushing. There is enough play that they can cant in the bore if the neck starts to enter off center. A one piece die can be made to give less neck tension to the point you don't need the expander plug. I, personally, have no need for that level of control but I have seen bench rest shooters using dies that size only the neck and only enough that the bullet can be seated by hand. I certainly couldn't argue with his results.

 

[Endyo]

Unless you have a small neck ID in your chamber (<0.004" clearance), a bushing die is likely to induce runout unless you size in multiple steps of 0.003" or less. A properly made FL die is by its nature concentric, but the bushing in a FL bushing die floats and thus can introduce runout in the sized neck. If you want low runout and controlled neck diameter, you are better off with a set of custom FL dies with appropriate neck diameters.

Very well written. I agree. I would not bother using a bushing die under these two conditions:

1. A Loose chamber
2. No-Turn Brass

My previous statements were under the pretense that these two conditions were met. I haven't done testing between a honed full length die vs a bushing die. I can't honestly say one is better than the other, but in terms of flexibility the bushings are going to be more forgiving.

I'm skeptical that the bushing floating in the die would induce much runout with turned brass and a properly sized bushing for a tight necked chamber. Although, I agree that it probably does have an effect.

 

[dickn52]

Amazing. AFTER I make a decision, 10 posts correcting me. Why didn't you guys post all this wisdom before I made up my mind? Amazing.

 

[Eric Leonard]

I am gonna try the Forrester 6BR FL size die,,I understand they will hone the neck dia to whatever size you need,,I am currently using the redding FL-S with a .263 bushing,,I would like to do some tests with a FL die that has a .263 neck so I can get the same neck tension from a one piece FL die without the bushings and see if there is any loss or gain in accuracy between the types of dies,,

 

[Barlow]

I use a Forster honed die for my 6 Dasher. The O.D. is .2635, works perfect. I personally have never had any luck with bushing dies. I may order another Forster die for my dasher but hone it to .2625 for my hunting loads. Barlow