High Primers in Lake City 223 Cases

[rckendall]

I have recently started reloading Lake City 223 brass to use in a Savage Model 12. Previously I had only done 223 for service rifles only. I've had great success with load development and accuracy, but there a few things not correct yet, and I don't know which way to turn. I have high primers in almost all that I reload, but no accidental discharges and only rarely a hard to close bolt. I've shot over 300 rounds so far, but I just think that I should do better at this.

I've measured the primers at 0.120 cup thickness and the cases are about 0.016 deep so can see the cause of the situation but again, don't know what to do about it. I am using one of the good old Lee auto priming tools which I also use on my 308 large rifle primers with no problems.

Words of wisdom greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Richard

Edit: I just checked some factory remanufactured rounds by Black Hills that I shot and they all have high primers in their Lake City cases too. With that being the case, how does one determine how much to bump the shoulder back?

 

[Shynloco]

When you use the words, "high primers", what do you mean? Are the primers below the casing head level or are you comparing the seating depth to that of other brass manufacturers? Personally, I use a lot of Lake City Brass (amongst others) in .223 in both a bolt gun (Savage Varmint Low Profile) and AR's as well. I also use the Sinclair pocket cleaner on every casing after firing to get the crud out so the primer seats level. I've never had a problem in several hundreds if not thousands of rounds I've loaded over the years. So I'm having difficulty in visualizing or fully understanding what your issue is. Care to provide a further explanation of your concerns in terms of what your worry is. Pictures in this case, would be worth a thousand words.

Also, bumping shoulders has zip to do with depth of your primer pockets, so please explain. Thx!

Alex

 

[alb]

I'm unclear as to what you're asking regarding the relationship of a high primer to shoulder bump; if you have a high primer, the amount you should bump the shoulder back is, in general, none, until you address the high primer.

I do find the primer pockets to be on the shallow side with LC cases, particularly the 5.56 cases. I uniform the primer pockets on all of them the first time, after swaging out the crimp. Holland's makes a very nice carbide uniformer; you can chuck it up in a drill for volume, but the carbide makes it very easy to use as a hand tool as well, and it comes with a very comfortable handle. I bought mine at Midway. There are other manufacturers of uniformers as well; Lyman, for example, sells them inexpensively.

 

[Shynloco]

I'm unclear as to what you're asking regarding the relationship of a high primer to shoulder bump; if you have a high primer, the amount you should bump the shoulder back is, in general, none, until you address the high primer....

alb,
No offense, but what is with you guys and the "high primers" stuff? Lake City brass may not be as deep as other brass, but still the primers seat below the brass head level easily. And if you are loading for a gas gun, you BETTER be bumping the shoulders back at least .002 or you'll end up with a "stove piped" casing and some potential misery in removing it. So to say that you shouldn't bump the shoulder back is both unsafe and unwise!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

 

[M-61]

I too, as the above #2 & #3 posts question what do you mean by 'high primers'. You sit the loaded round headstamp down on a flat surface and it rocks?
Then I ask what you mean by "no accidental discharges".......I hope I am misunderstanding you. Accidental discharge to me has a horrible definition.
Failure to fire, a hang fire, or you slammed the bolt home and it went off while pointed down range....those 3 are one thing.However the accidental discharge, well I await you response.
If those primers are indeed above the case head how hard is your bolt to close.......is this what your 'no accidental discharges means?

 

[alb]

alb,
No offense, but what is with you guys and the "high primers" stuff? Lake City brass may not be as deep as other brass, but still the primers seat below the brass head level easily. And if you are loading for a gas gun, you BETTER be bumping the shoulders back at least .002 or you'll end up with a "stove piped" casing and some potential misery in removing it. So to say that you shouldn't bump the shoulder back is both unsafe and unwise!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

Alex;

You'll note that I didn't say not to bump the shoulder back; I said not to bump it back until addressing the high primer. If you have a high primer, and I'm using the general definition here, i.e., a primer that protrudes above the case head, then that's the critical path. Believe me, safety is foremost in my mind.

 

[jerseyjoe]

I use Lake City brass exclusively in 2 ARs and have run across primer pockets that

would have kept the primer from seating below flush if I hadn't used a primer pockets

equalizer.

It appears to be a problem with how the primer pockets was formed, specifically,

the radius where the wall meets the bottom.

A radius at that intersection that is too large will prevent the primer from seating to

depth without excessive force.

It's likely the punch used to form the pockets was worn on the edge leaving a larger

radius than normal.

A primer pockets equalizer will fix the problem

 

[rckendall]

Ok, sorry for all the confusion. To me, a high primer is one that does not seat below the face of the case and in the case of semi autos, can cause a slam fire or accidental discharge. Next, when I measure a fired case to get a baseline for bumping the case neck, the primer sticking out beyond the case gives a false measurement. So, I guess I could decap separately and then measure the case, but what I'm seeing now says that it doesn't make any difference. My full length sizing die isn't setting the neck back.

I am using a Forster FL die and when it is adjusted properly, it doesn't bump the neck back at all. It seems that whatever shape/size goes into the die, the same comes out, except for the neck diameter. I called Forster last week to discuss this and it may be that I send the die back for modification, or at least their input.

I mentioned the Black Hills ammo that I shot and saw that the primers on them were also high, but as it turns out, that is only on the fired cases. So, from that I feel that the case is not growing in the chamber and the primer is being pushed out to the bolt face. That also fits the scenario of the cases having a wide range of sizes of case face to neck. I expected to see this initially because it was range brass, fired from who knows what. I did expect them to be the same or similar after firing in my rifle, but they are up to 0.008 different from smallest to largest, case face to neck.

I hope this clears up what my situation is and gets me going in the right direction.

Thanks
Richard

Edit: Joe, your post came through as I was typing this, and I think the pocket equalizer is the first step for sure. Thank you for that!

 

[jerseyjoe]

With your clarification, I see now that the primers are being pushed out when they

are fired, and not that they won't seat deep enough.

I'd guess excessive headspace in your bolt gun.

 

[wholman]

are the primers hard to start into the case if so
you might try a pocket swager .

 

[rckendall]

With your clarification, I see now that the primers are being pushed out when they

are fired, and not that they won't seat deep enough.

I'd guess excessive headspace in your bolt gun.

Joe,
My cases do not allow the primers to seat properly, but the Black Hills ammo showed me that there is another situation that I dont know how to handle. That is the cases not growing and the primers moving rearward. How do I get a reference length from a fired case if it doesn't grow when fired?

I have ordered a primer pocket uniformer as you suggested, and that will get me started.

Thanks
Richard

 

[jerseyjoe]

An RCBS Precision Mic will help

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/477756/rcbs-precision-mic-223-remington

 

[cheek9075]

I had the same problem with only 223 brass using lee primer. It did not do it with large rifle, or even small rifle in 6br, 30br, 6ppc, only on 223 cases. Inspect your lee primer, my was worn out. The cam was worn bad. Ordered new priming tool. No issues.

 

[CaptainMal]

Two issues:

1. Those primer pockets first MUST be reamed to remove the military crimp. You never speak of that. Was it done?
I use a K&M primer pocket uniforming tool next on all my military primers after reaming the crimp. It is set to a
stop and does make them all the same depth. I use a power screwdriver to do that easily.

2. If, after firing, the primers are backing out you have another problem. Most likely the case is too small for your
chamber. That's called "headspace". The primer is backing up before the case can press against the bolt face.

 

[Knotwild]

I had the same problem with only 223 brass using lee primer.

I bought a Lee Primer a couple of weeks ago and I have the same problem. It is a pain on .223 brass with the primer pocket swaged with the RCBS tool. I wish I hadn't wasted the money on it now, but I thought it would work as well as the 20 year old Lee I had.

 

[JAlfred]

Wolf SRM primers are a little larger in diameter and harder to seat in some brass makes, particularly with a Lee.

 

[Rsadams]

As others have asked are you removing the factory crimps?? LC brass has a crimped primer and the crimp must be removed before you can properly install a new primer.. If not you need the tool to remove the crimp either a swager or a simple hand tool will do the job.. If you do a lot, I like a case prep station...lyman , rcbs etc there are lots of options.. The hand tool works but your hands will get tired quickly...

 

[Texas10]

I shoot LC brass in a Savage model 12, 223. FC brass too. I never have to FL size my brass, only neck size with a Lee neck sizing die. This die uses a mandrel to set the neck size, and not an expander ball, so you don't have to lube the inside of the neck. Makes the sizing process go much smoother.

If you are properly removing the crimp from the brass before processing, you should not see primers backing out. By properly I mean a crimp removal tool, not a chamfering tool used to cut out the crimp as some often do.

When primers back out, and you can measure how far the primer sticks out of the head. This is your headspace dimension and it's probably excessive.

If what you are seeing is a cratered primer cup after firing, this is normal and you will not get a good reading on your comparator gage until you remove the primer.

I process my brass for my 223 this way; I use the Lee neck sizer and only push the brass in far enough to remove the primer, I don't neck size it at this stage. I clean in a Stainless steel pin tumbler (wet tumbling) and check length. If all is well, I place the brass in a loading tray or box.

I neck size the brass just before loading. This helps keep consistent neck tension as with time, brass will age harden after cold working. I size, prime, charge, seat the bullet and shoot within 48 hours.

Do this and your model 12 should be able to shoot tiny groups, assuming you are doing everything else well enough. My sons model 12FV will shoot 53 gr V-Max into groups measuring in the zeros's and one's at 100 yds. I can't do that, my eyes just aren't what they used to be.

 

[rckendall]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I use a Dillon Super Swage, I believe it is called, to remove the crimp in the case for the primer. The primers seat fine using my old Lee hand priming tool. Also, if I measure the pocket at the center and at the edges, I get two different numbers. So, as Joe suggested, I will use a pocket uniformer to cut the pockets without a radius at the edge. That totally makes sense to me.

I will also be purchasing a 21st Century priming tool from a member here on the board. I may not need it after recutting the primer pockets, but his offer to sell came at an opportune time for me.

Thanks again,
Richard

 

[hogan]

No ammunition is safe if primer protrudes above the primer pocket recess. Does your case sit flat on a level surface when primed? Does primer sit a thousandth or two below the level of the pocket? It should...

Undoubtedly you are uniforming your LCC/WCC cases to remove crimp, right? Are you uniforming the primer pockets with a carbide tool? I always did, at least on initial firing cycle for once-fired loads.

Who knows? Maybe you got a bad batch of primers that are out of spec? If you uniform the pockets you eliminate this concern.