223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass

[ar10ar15man]

where do the two tables come from ???
published where ?

( i have always been a proponent of 556 in 223 for 90% of the people,BUT they need to know they are not the same and issues can arise. the same is true for 308 win and 7.62x51 nato)

bottom line lake city makes 5.56 brass..thicker and harder then most commercial 223 remington brass......


which is what i said to begin with....

 

[ar10ar15man]

isnt that a 300 METER radius.......

Well now that we've thoroughly beaten this horse to death, to address the OPs question, yes, the 223 Rem and 5.56mm cases are interchangeable. There's some difference inthe ammo itself, and certainly between the 223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO chambers and throats, but the brass is essentially the same. Personally, I'd take the LC stuff over the Remington, as it usually seems to be much better quality.

Hothead and BigEd answered all this in the first 2-3 posts, before we got off to the races!

Mr. Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA

No horses were abused during any of my postings, my postings are for the benefit of the hard headed misinformed mules reading the postings.



As you can see below it is perfectly safe to put 32 psi in your tires but if you put 220 kPa in your tires they will blow up and kill everyone in a 300 yard radius. :

 

[KevinThomas]

Okay, now that's funny!

Just to keep this thing rolling a bit, let's talk about the 38 ACP vs. the 38 Super. That should keep things rolling a bit . . ..

 

[KevinThomas]

ar10ar15man,

LC brass is probably harder than the Remington stuff, but it's not any thicker. At least, not by any significant margins here. As hothead pointed out earlier, military 30-06 and 308/7.62x51 brass IS thicker and heavier that their commercial countrerparts, and DID require separate loading data. This is not the case (no pun intended) with 223/5.56mm brass. The stuff is, for all intents and purposes, identical from a reloading standpoint. I've run into a good many brands of commercial brass that is far heavier and thicker than military 5.56mm brass.

 

[bigedp51]

where do the two tables come from ???
published where ?

( i have always been a proponent of 556 in 223 for 90% of the people,BUT they need to know they are not the same and issues can arise. the same is true for 308 win and 7.62x51 nato)

bottom line lake city makes 5.56 brass..thicker and harder then most commercial 223 remington brass......


which is what i said to begin with....

Your one of the main reasons why this posting got off track, Lake City cases are thinner than most .223 cases and have more internal volume. :

"Which is what "I" said to begin with..."

 

[bigedp51]

Okay, now that's funny!

Just to keep this thing rolling a bit, let's talk about the 38 ACP vs. the 38 Super. That should keep things rolling a bit . . ..

Mr. Kevin Thomas

I'm retired and have been reloading for over 46 years, which means nothing with the expertise we have in this forum. BUT I'm old fashioned and HATE PSI readings in the reloading manuals and keep asking myself what that reading would be in CUP.

Between the change over from cup to psi and the Army manuals listing all military pressures in psi, its no wonder so many people are confused. What many people do not understand is both copper units pressure (cup) and the transducer method (psi) are "BOTH" still pounds per square inch in American English. (and the Army list cup pressures as psi)

 

[KevinThomas]

Well, that's also one of the reasons that so many loads in manuals across the board are reducing their loads. The transducers are better and more accurate than the older (CUP) methods of pressure measurment. The military has always been a bit slow to change their methods, even when something vastly better comes along. Take the velocity readings still being measured at 78 ft for most rifle ammo, and 53 ft for pistol ammo. Care to guess how far that goes back????

Yeah, I know the feeling. Get pretty stubborn about some things myself.

 

[bigedp51]

MIL-C-9963F
15 October 1976
SUPERSEDING
MIL-C-9963E
12 May 1970

MILITARY SPECIFICATION
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193

3.7 Chamber pressure.

3.7.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder.-The average chamber pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not exceed 52,000 pounds per square inch (PSI). The average chamber pressure plus three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 58,000 PSI.

3.7.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer.-The average chamber
pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2°F, shall not
exceed 55,000 PSI. The average chamber pressure plus three standard
deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 61,000 PSI.

Below page 10-3 M193 ammunition from TM 43-0001-27
Chamber pressure 52,000 psi (using the copper crusher method)



Below page 10-19 M855 ammunition from TM 43-0001-27
Chamber pressure 55,000 psi (using the transducer method)



European NATO 5.56 CIP pressure figure of 62,000 psi is the same pressure as the American SAAMI transducer pressure of 55,000 psi and the same pressure as American SAAMI copper crusher pressure of 52,000 psi (cup)

The only difference is military M855 ammunition is fired from a M16/A4 rifle with a longer throat. If M855 military ammunition is fired in a short throated .223 the pressure can be approaching 60,000 psi SAAMI transducer method.

The green pressure reading below show that commercial .223 ammunition is NOT loaded to the max rated pressure of 55,000 psi. And the blue pressure readind show that military ammunition is loaded much closer to the max rated pressure of 55,000 psi.

The first blue bar from the left shows that firing M855 ammunition in a short throated .223 will be approximately 4,000 psi above the max rated pressure of 55,000 psi.

 

[mac86951]

Lake City and Remington .223/5.56 cartridge case are very close in "average" case weight, "BUT" Remington cases can vary in weight far more than Lake City cases do. Meaning the commercial Remington cases will also vary in case capacity more than Military Lake City cases.

I have Remington .223 cases the vary in weight from 90 to over 94 grains, and in these Remington cases I only load them to 24.7 grains of H335 for practice in my AR15 rifles.



What is also important to know is the military cases have mil-spec hardness requirements and are tougher and made for higher pressures. (Lake City cases are built Ford truck tough) ;D










When the M16 rifle was first introduced military contract 5.56 ammunition was linked to part of the M16 jamming problem and the military set new hardness standards for military cases. (commercial brass was too soft)

Thanks BigEd. This is what the 6th time you've had to copy past this response? I recall asking a similar question in December and getting this response.

I measure my case capacity with H20, then enter that into QuickLoad. Pressures and Velocities have been right on since then. Default is 28.8 which as you can see is approx. 1 gr. BELOW what most current brass is capable of.

-Mac

 

[bigedp51]

Thanks BigEd. This is what the 6th time you've had to copy past this response? I recall asking a similar question in December and getting this response.

I measure my case capacity with H20, then enter that into QuickLoad. Pressures and Velocities have been right on since then. Default is 28.8 which as you can see is approx. 1 gr. BELOW what most current brass is capable of.

-Mac

mac86951

I do not have a chronograph so my Quickload pressures are not accurate, on top of this the same powder charge of H355 or any powder is the same pressure when I select 5.56x45 NATO or SAAMI .223 in cartridge selection. Meaning Quickload defaults do not know the variations in throat lengths for the two cartridges.

Without charts I have no idea where to set the "Start Shot Initiation Pressure", "Burn rate factor" etc to get correct or "close" pressure readings. My problem is I have a five gallon bucket of once fired range pickup Remington brass that I got when our local Swat Teams were practicing. This Remington brass varies in weight and I wanted to see what the pressures differences would be with their different case capacities with the same powder charge.

The problem is I can not calibrate Quickload to give good close pressure readings, and from what I have read (Quote) "Quickload pressures can be a little flaky".

My problem is very simple, I'm lazy and I didn't want to sit down and weigh each case and sort all that brass for my AR15s like I did for my bolt action .223.

 

[ar10ar15man]

ed...
buy a chronograph.....
all else is guessing....

 

[mac86951]

Thanks BigEd. This is what the 6th time you've had to copy past this response? I recall asking a similar question in December and getting this response.

I measure my case capacity with H20, then enter that into QuickLoad. Pressures and Velocities have been right on since then. Default is 28.8 which as you can see is approx. 1 gr. BELOW what most current brass is capable of.

-Mac

mac86951

I do not have a chronograph so my Quickload pressures are not accurate, on top of this the same powder charge of H355 or any powder is the same pressure when I select 5.56x45 NATO or SAAMI .223 in cartridge selection. Meaning Quickload defaults do not know the variations in throat lengths for the two cartridges.

Without charts I have no idea where to set the "Start Shot Initiation Pressure", "Burn rate factor" etc to get correct or "close" pressure readings. My problem is I have a five gallon bucket of once fired range pickup Remington brass that I got when our local Swat Teams were practicing. This Remington brass varies in weight and I wanted to see what the pressures differences would be with their different case capacities with the same powder charge.

The problem is I can not calibrate Quickload to give good close pressure readings, and from what I have read (Quote) "Quickload pressures can be a little flaky".

My problem is very simple, I'm lazy and I didn't want to sit down and weigh each case and sort all that brass for my AR15s like I did for my bolt action .223.

i feel the same way, i ended up just using my chrono and wondered why QL was off on velocity. When I put the H20 volumes in it was very close (within 15fps). I have a .223 Wylde chamber, I can see how the different free-bore dimensions can affect pressure, but I also load to mag-length, keeping all bullets jumping to the lands (usually by way too much...). I don't even use the 5.56 setting in QL, just .223 and so far I've been happy with the results. As with everything in reloading YMMV.

-Mac