223 Wylde Match Load

[mac86951]

The Wylde chamber is very different than the 223/556 chamber. The lengths are different and the shoulder angle is different. The Wylde chamber is fatter and shorter than the 223/556. That is why I say you need a custom die.View attachment 1008792
Compared to the 223/556 you are shooting a 223 in an "Improved" chamber.

Question for sheep dog. I see a wylde reamer posted (Manson reamer are excellent IMO); what's a standard 223 shoulder angle?

-Mac

 

[J Nehring]

Try .2g powder increments.
1/4 Moa is a lot to ask from a factory gun. If you are doing it at 100, conditions and fundamentals are most likely getting you at 200.

Eric,
I do agree with you that 1/4 MOA accuracy from a factory gun is asking a lot, but considering that the load i threw together for it (w/o tuning) is producing a 3/4" group almost every range visit (200yds), don't you think the potential is there w/ a tuned load? Idk, maybe I'm dreaming but I have an awful hard time believing that I got that lucky and guessed all the best components right.

 

[eric n]

Eric,
I do agree with you that 1/4 MOA accuracy from a factory gun is asking a lot, but considering that the load i threw together for it (w/o tuning) is producing a 3/4" group almost every range visit (200yds), don't you think the potential is there w/ a tuned load? Idk, maybe I'm dreaming...

3/4" at 200 with a factory gas gun is outstanding. My thoughts would be reading conditions will improve your groups more then anything at this point.

 

[ebb]

Ashiha, Never give up!!! The gun I mentioned to the OP showed me a good group every now and then. I happened often enough that I knew it could shoot, but something was getting in the way. It had a brand new scope and I refused to believe it was the scope. After about a year of messing with it, my friend keep telling to try his scope checker. I finally did and it had been the scope all along. If you think it's the barrel get someone to borescope it. Ignition is a big stumbling block, spring firing pin extrusion, ect., ect. Never give up.

 

[J Nehring]

J Nehring, I hope you don't mind, but I have a couple questions for those in this thread since they are related.

1. At what point would you just say that you've reached the limits of the barrel/gun?
It seems like testing can go on FOREVER if allowed to with testing different brass, primers, powders, bullets, seating depths, etc.

2. Similarly to the above question, how many powders/primers/bullets can you justify testing?
I like to buy powders in bulk and can't reasonably buy 8lb jugs of a bunch of different types. It seems to be overly difficult for me to read "try powder X" when I have so much of something else. What guidelines do most of you go by regarding this?

Use a chronograph, record your data, read your targets, figure out what the data and targets are telling you and then use your intuition on which way to go. Maybe your gun likes faster burning loads or maybe it likes slower burning loads, only your data and targets can tell you this. Choose a bullet weight wisely based on your twist rate and intended use. Primers are tough but if seated properly and consistently, you can see the difference between brands on a chronograph and what the load likes best. Keep your velocities as consistent as possible. If something isn't working, you run into a road block or run out of ideas you can always ask someone on a forum...

 

[J Nehring]

Use a chronograph, record your data, read your targets, figure out what the data and targets are telling you and then use your intuition on which way to go. Maybe your gun likes faster burning loads or maybe it likes slower burning loads, only your data and targets can tell you this. Choose a bullet weight wisely based on your twist rate and intended use. Primers are tough but if seated properly and consistently, you can see the difference between brands on a chronograph and what the load likes best. Keep your velocities as consistent as possible. If something isn't working, you run into a road block or run out of ideas you can always ask someone on a forum...

Btw, about question #2: if you want to test various different loads to try to find the magic recipe then don't buy 8lb containers. Only buy one or two pounds of the same powder and have many different kinds of one pounders on hand for load development. Also, have different primers on hand to experiment with. The key is to buy a little of everything instead of a lot of any one thing. When you find your load that meets your satisfaction, then go buy larger quantities.

 

[J Nehring]

What do your groups look like? Horizontal, vertical, round? What is the wind doing? What do your 100 yd groups look like? Do you have experience shooting with a monopod?
I had a predator pursuit that shot about what yours does. I never could get the 75 bthp to shoot as well as other bullets. Berger 70vld, 69 smk, and 75 amax shot better then hornadys with the nod to 75amax.
Seating depth tune is a big deal, since you are at mag length, try tuning by shortening your cbto a few thou at a time.
What size bushing are you using for your necks? A lot of 223s shoot well with .003 "neck tension". A bushing .003 under your loaded round neck dia.
Good luck with it!

Not to add to the chaos, but now Hornady has their new ELD Match line of bullets with .224" bullets available in 73, 75 and 80gr. I wonder if anyone has had much experience with these and comparing them against other products. I know they haven't been out for very long so information on them is a little scarce right now.

 

[mac86951]

Not to add to the chaos, but now Hornady has their new ELD Match line of bullets with .224" bullets available in 73, 75 and 80gr. I wonder if anyone has had much experience with these and comparing them against other products. I know they haven't been out for very long so information on them is a little scarce right now.

I'm certainly going to try them; but I've always had better consistency with match HPBT. Maybe just me; maybe product of harsh feeding in AR (ok the 75 and 80 would be single fed) maybe it's just my old fashioned...

-Mac

 

[DocBII]

Doc,
Thank you for your input, and glad to hear about shooter out there with the same set-up. The Sierra 69gr MK are very next on my list. I have quite a few different VV powders in my cabinet and have seen various recommendations on VV powders (140, 540, 550, etc). Coming from somebody with the same barrel, however, I am more prone to trying the N-140. What has your experience been with CCI BR4 primers, or haven't you tried them? Only reason I ask is that I assume they should deliver good consistency considering they are benchrest primers. I had poor results (SD's) in the past with Winchester primers (WLR) in my 308 which is what shunned me away from trying them again.

J,

If you are stuck on CCI primers, I'd use the # 41. BR4s were very dirty, VV burns very clean with what I listed.

If you are committed to trying to reach 1/4 MOA, it can be done. You have to turn your OCD loose on the .223 brass. Neck turn, weigh, trim, uniform primer pockets and flash holes. I've always bought large lots (2k) of 1f Winchester brass and or just 500 Lapua. Used the less than perfect Winchester for CQB matches, less than perfect Lapua for hunting. YMMV, but you can get ALMOST bolt gun performance out of your rig. You may wish to consider moly or HBN.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[DirtySteve]

I shoot 75 gr Amax over 24.6 gr Varget loaded in LC brass to a COAL of 2.488 and get 2950 fps. Accuracy runs under 1/2 MOA closer to 1/4. But this is from a bolt gun and Shilen barrel with a Wylde chamber. Not sure if this is of any use to you but thought I would share my load.

 

[SheepDog]

Question for sheep dog. I see a wylde reamer posted (Manson reamer are excellent IMO); what's a standard 223 shoulder angle?

-Mac

I had to look it up to be sure and the shoulder angles of both cartridges are 23 degrees. the length from base to the shoulder is 1.438 for the 223/556 and 1.773 for the Wylde, and the diameter at the shoulder is .3572for the Wylde and .354 for the 223/556.

 

[243Mendoza]

J,

I have the same rifle, I shoot 80s and 69s out of it. 80's will shoot 1/4 MOA to 1k, 69s to 800....

HTH,
DocBII

With that accuracy you would win most matches, highpower, fclass and benchrest

 

[mac86951]

I had to look it up to be sure and the shoulder angles of both cartridges are 23 degrees. the length from base to the shoulder is 1.438 for the 223/556 and 1.773 for the Wylde, and the diameter at the shoulder is .3572for the Wylde and .354 for the 223/556.

Ahh, ok thanks. Isn't the base to shoulder measurement same as headspace? I'm just asking as the base to shoulder measurement on reamer print previously posted is only 1.232". In fact; I bet right below that is the drawing note to use 223 headspace gauges.

 

[Patch700]

3/4" at 200 with a factory gas gun is outstanding. My thoughts would be reading conditions will improve your groups more then anything at this point.

Indeed... When you are trying to reduce your groups by a 1/4" and there is a 1/4" condition downrange and you are not using flags... You have to ask yourself the clint eastwood question.. "Do you feel lucky?"...
I myself enjoy the act of reloading and finding a recipe that works...
However , the satisfaction is multiplied when I read a condition and sail one into where it was intended.. When I know full well that had I not read the condition I would have previously chalked it up to "I pulled that one" or "The load needs work" lol

Ignoring the laws of physics is a form of denial... Don't waste your life and components away being in denial lol.

 

['Freak]

Ahh, ok thanks. Isn't the base to shoulder measurement same as headspace? I'm just asking as the base to shoulder measurement on reamer print previously posted is only 1.232". In fact; I bet right below that is the drawing note to use 223 headspace gauges.

The Wylde chamber is ~ 0.001” fatter at the case head and ~ 0.002” fatter at the case body/shoulder junction. Other than the Wylde’s longer freebore, every other length in Wylde vs. 223 Remington chambers is ever so very near the same.

 

[mac86951]

The Wylde chamber is ~ 0.001” fatter at the case head and ~ 0.002” fatter at the case body/shoulder junction. Other than the Wylde’s longer freebore, every other length in Wylde vs. 223 Remington chambers is ever so very near the same.

Exactly what I thought. Thank you.

Back to the ops post; any results yet?

-Mac

 

[swadiver]

J,

I have the same rifle, I shoot 80s and 69s out of it. 80's will shoot 1/4 MOA to 1k, 69s to 800.

Berger, Sierra, and JLK 80s all worked well. Used either WSR or CCI #41 with either N550 or PP 2000 MR. COL is 2.555", work up to best accuracy with charge, mine was 26.3 with either powder.

Sierra 69s worked best with N-140, 2.260" COL, same primers, work up to 24.0 gr.

HTH,
DocBII

ah yes, the famous "1/4 moa all day long" AR 15..

 

[Markk9]

This my AR-15 load tested at 200 yards. My load is LC brass, Nosler 69 CC's, CCI 400 primers, and 25.5 grs Varget. Rifle is a Rock River AR-15, with a 20" 1-9 Twist, scope is a Primary Arms 4X14.

http://i.imgur.com/UbxWA2Q.jpg

Here is the 100 yard test of this load. 5 shots each at 5 targets.

http://imgur.com/hem02RQ

 

[Bamboolongbow]

Have you taking a look at the bore? How does it look?
If you are still looking for another option try some Ramshot TAC and some 69SMKs.

 

[Bamban]

1/4 minute agg with a 223 AR, as ths saying goes "it ain't gonna happen" 1/4 minute at 1K 223 AR is somebody's wet dream