223 Wylde Match Load

[butchlambert]

Whatever Bamban says you can take to the bank. He has competed with them for years and is one of, if not the best AR Service Rifle smiths in the USA.

 

[Bamban]

Whatever Bamban says you can take to the bank. He has competed with them for years and is one of, if not the best AR Service Rifle smiths in the USA.

AR15 smith I am not, tar from it, coach. However, I've burned up over a dozen AR over time, I can tell you 1/4 Minute at 1K from an AR 15 is a pipe dream. I have this piece of wood that I won with an AR15 223 against Magnums and Palma guns, I can honestly say, it was not a 1/4 minute at 1K. Never seen one that would do that, plus I am not a quarter minute shooter.

 

[DocBII]

1/4 minute agg with a 223 AR, as ths saying goes "it ain't gonna happen" 1/4 minute at 1K 223 AR is somebody's wet dream

Bamban,

Agg is no argument. I chased S. Ward for a couple of years at an Alabama match shooting 3-4" groups (off-target) compared to his bolt gun. Usually lost to him by 5-10 points out of 200, 1 MOA bull for 10, 2 MOA scoring for 5. No sighters, no wind flags. You've got to be able to see impact and correct.

Edited:

I didn't read all of the other posts until the after the above update. Never said all day long and wouldn't do so, but I did shoot it in competition for a couple of years. Sometimes won, usually lost.

Have fun,
DocBII

 

[Markk9]

1/4 minute agg with a 223 AR, as ths saying goes "it ain't gonna happen" 1/4 minute at 1K 223 AR is somebody's wet dream

Is a 1/2 MOA AR a real thing?

 

[swadiver]

this is the best i could manage at 100 yds. 73 gr Bergers in Lapua brass with IMR 8208XBR. i have never been able to repeat such a good agg. still can get some .2's and .3's", but never could put it all together again. this was shot as you can see in the pic, with one of the best front rests for an AR, i think. The AR has a Krieger 1 in 7.7 twist, 20" barrel. the barrel is glue into the lapped face upper receiver. the lower uses a Geissle High speed National match trigger, with probably the lowest pull weight you can get from an off the shelf AR trigger. It has an adjustable gas block with a super light weight recoil buffer, resulting in minimal recoil.

despite all the above, my F/TR bolt rifle in .223 will easily out agg the AR.

the nut behind the trigger is always an issue (that's me), and the bolt rifle is easier to shoot well, but i just don't think an AR can really keep up with a good bolt rifle.

all 5 shot groups

 

[J Nehring]

1/4 minute agg with a 223 AR, as ths saying goes "it ain't gonna happen" 1/4 minute at 1K 223 AR is somebody's wet dream

+1 to that 1/4moa @ 1k. Even out of a custom $10k f-class rifle, that would be an awful lot to ask for. I believe one would be setting themselves up for disappointment with such expectations. That cartridge and bullet just aren't ideal for that kind of distance. Those light bullets are too easily pushed around by conditions which leaves you no margin for error making wind calls to expect that kind of accuracy at 1k.

 

[expiper]

finally some truth and experience has surfaced on this thread,,,any one who thinks 1/4 MOA is an everday thing has certainly not competed or even shot much in the back yard,,,,the best of the best at short range can barely do it ,,,(look at Billy Stevens score at this years SS) ,,,,and anyone who thinks a rattle gun can compete successfully with a bolt gun is delusional ,,,,,Roger

 

[J Nehring]

this is the best i could manage at 100 yds. 73 gr Bergers in Lapua brass with IMR 8208XBR. i have never been able to repeat such a good agg. still can get some .2's and .3's", but never could put it all together again. this was shot as you can see in the pic, with one of the best front rests for an AR, i think. The AR has a Krieger 1 in 7.7 twist, 20" barrel. the barrel is glue into the lapped face upper receiver. the lower uses a Geissle High speed National match trigger, with probably the lowest pull weight you can get from an off the shelf AR trigger. It has an adjustable gas block with a super light weight recoil buffer, resulting in minimal recoil.

despite all the above, my F/TR bolt rifle in .223 will easily out agg the AR.

the nut behind the trigger is always an issue (that's me), and the bolt rifle is easier to shoot well, but i just don't think an AR can really keep up with a good bolt rifle.

all 5 shot groups

That is an interesting powder choice for the 223, nothing wrong with that though. It is my powder of choice for my 308 match load. What kind of SD's or ES are you getting with that load out of your AR? So far I've tested Varget, RL15, H4895 and N-140. N-140 have the best SD's hands down with 25.5 gr at 2900fps and SD: 4.5 (HBN coated bullets - 75gr HPBT). Extreme spread was 12fps. Measured from MagnetoSpeed V3 chronograph.

 

[J Nehring]

Is a 1/2 MOA AR a real thing?

It most certainly is a real thing, but somewhat difficult to achieve. My RRA AR15 is average 1" @ 200yds w/ semi-tuned handload. Those groups general fluctuate from 3/4" to 1.25" @ 200yds. At 200yds, 3/4" = 3/8MOA, 1.00" = 1/2MOA, and 1.25" = 5/8MOA. I only have a few years experience with benchrest target shooting, and I've been working very hard to perfect everything behind the trigger but I'm sure that with some improvements on my behalf that I may get to see some occasional 1/4moa groups at 100-200yds.

 

[swadiver]

That is an interesting powder choice for the 223, nothing wrong with that though. It is my powder of choice for my 308 match load. What kind of SD's or ES are you getting with that load out of your AR? So far I've tested Varget, RL15, H4895 and N-140. N-140 have the best SD's hands down with 25.5 gr at 2900fps and SD: 4.5 (HBN coated bullets - 75gr HPBT). Extreme spread was 12fps. Measured from MagnetoSpeed V3 chronograph.

i will have to check the numbers. I use the 8208XBR with the same bullets in my .223 bolt gun, which shoots 'em awesome. i did use 8208 XBR with 150 gr class of bullets in one of my .308's to great effect. works great with the lighter bullets in the 6BR as well.

the LabRadar said 2670 fps here @ sea level. ES averaged @ 25 fps with ES at 7 fps. (20 in barrel). this was a very light load set up just for 100 yd accuracy. once i hit this node, i never explored up higher with this powder. maybe i should, but the AR shooting is not a priority for me right now

 

[T-shooter]

Question for sheep dog. I see a wylde reamer posted (Manson reamer are excellent IMO); what's a standard 223 shoulder angle?

-Mac

Something else you should look for is the amount of jump. I just measured a couple bullets (using the same one in each rifle) in a 5.56 NATO and .223 Wylde chambers. Both of these barrels only have a couple hundred rounds through them and came from Palmetto. With a Hornady 75g BTHP Match, the distance from the bolt face to touching the lands was 2.396" for the NATO and 2.269" for the Wylde. Using a Sierra 77g M/K, 2.422" for the NATO and 2.374" for the Wylde. A massive amount in the NATO chamber. I use Korean H&K knock off magazines and can easily get 2.300" lengths in the magazines. In the Wylde chamber, I have to set the C.O.L. to 2.250" with the Hornady bullet. With the NATO, I run them at 2.300" and still have .096" jump. It's even worse with the Sierra at .122" jump. I've measured the 69g Sierra M/K, Sierra 69g Tipped, Hornady 62g BTHP, and the 55g LeHigh Controlled Chaos. All of these can be run in my Wylde chamber at 2.300" but they would need to be checked in any other rifle.

The knock off H&K magazines have only one layer of steel in the front and rear and are butt welded in the middle. Standard mags are overlapped (2 layers of steel) and spot welded reducing their internal dimensions. I did have to flatten the top of the middle groove to get them to feed better The ASC mags are suppose to be at least 2.300" inside but some are and some aren't. Regular H&K mags are too expensive. These Korean mags are identical and about 1/4 the cost.

 

[expiper]

this is the best i could manage at 100 yds. 73 gr Bergers in Lapua brass with IMR 8208XBR. i have never been able to repeat such a good agg. still can get some .2's and .3's", but never could put it all together again. this was shot as you can see in the pic, with one of the best front rests for an AR, i think. The AR has a Krieger 1 in 7.7 twist, 20" barrel. the barrel is glue into the lapped face upper receiver. the lower uses a Geissle High speed National match trigger, with probably the lowest pull weight you can get from an off the shelf AR trigger. It has an adjustable gas block with a super light weight recoil buffer, resulting in minimal recoil.

despite all the above, my F/TR bolt rifle in .223 will easily out agg the AR.

the nut behind the trigger is always an issue (that's me), and the bolt rifle is easier to shoot well, but i just don't think an AR can really keep up with a good bolt rifle.

all 5 shot groups

wow,,,that is a very accurate AR,,,I have shot em enuff to know that is about as good as it gets for a rattle gun,,,,you are using benchrest quality bullets also,,,,most guys are using cheap,bulk,bullets that automaticly cost the group sizes 1/4 - 1/2 moa from the beginning ,,,, I use Benchmark powder for 60 gr and smaller bullets ,,but,,you have a terrific rifle there that just might make it work with those 74gr Bergers,,,it obvious you are working at it and it is paying off,,,Roger

 

[Knotwild]

Korean H&K knock off magazines

Would you share the name of the magazines you are using and/or where you get them? And do they possibly make them in a 20 round?

Thanks

 

[swadiver]

wow,,,that is a very accurate AR,,,I have shot em enuff to know that is about as good as it gets for a rattle gun,,,,you are using benchrest quality bullets also,,,,most guys are using cheap,bulk,bullets that automaticly cost the group sizes 1/4 - 1/2 moa from the beginning ,,,, I use Benchmark powder for 60 gr and smaller bullets ,,but,,you have a terrific rifle there that just might make it work with those 74gr Bergers,,,it obvious you are working at it and it is paying off,,,Roger

thanks Sir for the comments. I guess it does shoot pretty good

 

[T-shooter]

Would you share the name of the magazines you are using and/or where you get them? And do they possibly make them in a 20 round?

Thanks

The only place I found them at is Centerfire Systems.com.
HK Style AR-15 .223 30rd Steel Korean Mag
Part Number MAGAR-KR30

I don't see any 20 round mags of this type listed. These are shorter than most for a 30 round. Measuring from center top (top of lips) to center bottom it's 7-1/4". I use Federal Cases and they seem to catch at the extractor groove on the center internal bump in the magazines. Others may not. If you can't pull the rounds out with your finger, something is wrong. I ordered 6 of these and they appear to be identical to the H&K. The fix was easy. I took a flat end punch about 1/8" diameter and ground it to an angle so when I insert it inside the feed lips, it contacts the sides level. Then lay the mag on a solid piece of wood and hammer the punch (easily) to remove most of the internal ridge at the top. I did have to straighten a couple of the lips but just match them to an unmodified mag. Afterwards, I loaded 30 rounds in each and manually cycled all through. I also bevel and round the inside of the front surface of all AR mags where the round rides up and over the edge.

 

[Knotwild]

The only place I found them at is Centerfire Systems.com.

Thanks very much. That is exactly what I need to know. And thanks for describing the problems and how to fix them. I use my AR's on a plantation I manage and they are a great working gun for me, but I do enjoy shooting off the bench sometimes.

 

[J Nehring]

Something else you should look for is the amount of jump. I just measured a couple bullets (using the same one in each rifle) in a 5.56 NATO and .223 Wylde chambers. Both of these barrels only have a couple hundred rounds through them and came from Palmetto. With a Hornady 75g BTHP Match, the distance from the bolt face to touching the lands was 2.396" for the NATO and 2.269" for the Wylde. Using a Sierra 77g M/K, 2.422" for the NATO and 2.374" for the Wylde. A massive amount in the NATO chamber. I use Korean H&K knock off magazines and can easily get 2.300" lengths in the magazines. In the Wylde chamber, I have to set the C.O.L. to 2.250" with the Hornady bullet. With the NATO, I run them at 2.300" and still have .096" jump. It's even worse with the Sierra at .122" jump. I've measured the 69g Sierra M/K, Sierra 69g Tipped, Hornady 62g BTHP, and the 55g LeHigh Controlled Chaos. All of these can be run in my Wylde chamber at 2.300" but they would need to be checked in any other rifle.

The knock off H&K magazines have only one layer of steel in the front and rear and are butt welded in the middle. Standard mags are overlapped (2 layers of steel) and spot welded reducing their internal dimensions. I did have to flatten the top of the middle groove to get them to feed better The ASC mags are suppose to be at least 2.300" inside but some are and some aren't. Regular H&K mags are too expensive. These Korean mags are identical and about 1/4 the cost.

Awesome, thanks for the info. That is a concern I've had since I built this gun. My jump with Hornady 75gr HPBT is .090 - .100" with COAL @ 2.260 (which is all the length my Magpul magazine will allow). If the HK will allow COAL 2.300", then that will bring me another. 040" closer to the lands. I'm switching over to Berger bullets (73gr Match BT), and these bullets at the same COAL will bring me another .030" closer to the lands. Combination of both would bring the jump down to .030".

 

[T-shooter]

Awesome, thanks for the info. That is a concern I've had since I built this gun. My jump with Hornady 75gr HPBT is .090 - .100" with COAL @ 2.260 (which is all the length my Magpul magazine will allow). If the HK will allow COAL 2.300", then that will bring me another. 040" closer to the lands. I'm switching over to Berger bullets (73gr Match BT), and these bullets at the same COAL will bring me another .030" closer to the lands. Combination of both would bring the jump down to .030".

Seems like the bullet should be closer to the lands. I only have experience for one Wylde chamber but mine will touch the rifling with an average C.O.L. of 2.269". Different bullets have different dimensions even though they are the same part number. Here are a couple examples. I measured them with aa Hornady bullet comparator and measured from both ends. It would be better if the bore in the too were .004" smaller than the bullet O.D. instead of .010" for the .223's. The other 2 are Hornady 168 grain Match .308's and the tool bore is .008" smaller. A good reason not to set the seating depth from the tip.

 

[Conaso]

www.backcavitybullets.com magazines, .223 and 6.8SPC allow 2.360 COAL. Quality PRI 10rd mags modified (cutout). Around $58 shipped.

 

[Shynloco]

finally some truth and experience has surfaced on this thread,,,any one who thinks 1/4 MOA is an everday thing has certainly not competed or even shot much in the back yard,,,,the best of the best at short range can barely do it ,,,(look at Billy Stevens score at this years SS) ,,,,and anyone who thinks a rattle gun can compete successfully with a bolt gun is delusional ,,,,,Roger

+1. Now I don't know "delusional" is the right word...INEXPERIENCED in comparison is perhaps a better. In reading many of the comments above, it is clear to me that some are trying to apply many of the same precise principles we Benchrest and precision/competition Shooter use in Bolt Gun reloading to AR's. That my friend AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Now I claim no spectacular expertise with AR's, but do know from experience, that it is a pipe dream to believe that any AR, custom or otherwise, will ever keep up with a Precision built bolt gun. And my experience comes from having had a custom built AR15 (San Tan Tactical Upper/Lower, PRS Stock, JP Precision Parts and Barrel) built by a master Gunsmith who competes and built my rifle to mirror his competition AR15. And though if I load each round by hand and play with seating depth, my 5 shot groups do tighten up a tad, though those 5 shots are all touching one another using 77 gr Sierra and are darn close using 69 grains when I load from a Magpul magazine, that at 100 yds. Now I admit, I am the weak link in the cycle because at 70, my eyesight isn't what it was when I was 30. But back then AR's weren't made like they are today, as I ended up giving a few to my boys as they could care less about 5 shots group touching, so long as the damn thing hits what they aim at. But I will add that no matter the AR make or model, you still have to test for both bullet weight and the powder it likes best. And that feature is no different than any of weapons for which someone would reload for.

But might I suggest, that as others have already said, don't set yourself for disappointment by expecting more out of a weapon than it is capable. From experience over several years, a $1500 AR is not going to shoot like a $3000 - $4000 AR. And the person pulling the trigger may well be the difference in even getting close. But of course, each of us has to be honest with their ability (inherent or learned) to hit exactly what they aim for. And that, my friends, is the toughest part of the equation to master. Having seen it time and time again where people complain about the weapon's inaccuracy, only to have someone whose an accomplished shooter, pick up the same rifle and shoot some fantastic scores or targets.

Lastly, do try the 69 and 77 gr Sierras. The powder that has worked very nicely for me is VVN140 in a JP Precision 1:8 chamber. Might consider also trying some VVN530 or VVN540. No guarantee your rifle will like them. But you won't know until you test some. Most importantly, have fun and good luck in your efforts. But don't waste your time chasing the impossible dream that only happens in trash talking or the movies.

Alex